In thinking marriage is an institution preferred by the middle class

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

and based on economics ?

I will tell you the truth. I know absolutely NO One who Is unmarried with children. Middle class mother of 3. Dc now in early 20s and 18. Live in South East. Work full time in the Civil Service on about 40k. DH has a very tricky Mental illness therefore we don't currently live together but he has 5 DC with ex wife. When he works he is a high earner.

I read on MN all the time about couples living together with dc who are not married and wonder why there is such a disparity between my 'world' and the outside world where cohabitation is prevalent .

Based on the fact that I have had 'kids parents ' around for a quarter of a century - that's a LOT of couples ...I am wondering why my world is so different from the norm - and thinking , is it to do with money /property. ? Surely MC women have the same number of accidental slip ups than anyone else as fertility isn't governed by economic prosperity. Or are the well off more ruthless and feel more able to abort if 'the perfect situation isn't in place'

No judgement either way. I have no religious agenda about marriage and kids - just genuinely interested why I have absolutely no 'living together ' friends , even when a first marriage has ended and there are no more kids. Why do all the families i know, re marry when it's not the norm these days. ?

I'm not married, earn a lot more than partner, pay all childcare, work part time, own the property we live in. I pay all holidays etc. I also carry mental load and manage household. I would be reluctant to marry as I would have to organise it all, don't really like being centre of attention and in event if divorce would owe him half of my estate.

1. Nothing much to organise if you just go to the registry office with two witnesses to sort out the paperwork. Marriage is valid once you have the certificate, not because of the reception, big dress etc etc.

1. It's interesting to see this frankness from the small number of women who earn significantly more than their partner. Any man venturing onto MN and admitting that he was avoiding marriage so that he wouldn't have to hand over half his estate to his erstwhile life partner if they split up would be taken apart.

I've been married nearly 40 years. There have been times when I was the higher earner, and I also had many years as a SAHM, by mutual agreement. My husband and I have always regarded ourselves a unit financially. We have a joint current account and what's his is mine and vice versa. This wouldn't work for everyone but it's served us well. We have very similar attitudes to money and total trust.

I think class is a bigger determinant than money. I dont know many unmarried couples and yes the ones not married are in lower paid jobs but my wedding and that of a lot of my friends were quite informal and cheap- mine was a registry office do. I wonder whether people on a lower income worry about the fi ancisl aspect a bit too much and think they need to have the massive 30k job so think they may as well not bother whereas money is less important if you have it or know you have the education and skills to earn more of it if you need to.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g yeah true I see your point.
I do think in most relationships where the man earns more, the woman does more in the household/child rearing department so it balances out.

Also we are not religious at all. However we did get wills made leaving everything to each other when the babies were born.

Not sure how you're defining MC to be honest - it's a bit of a nebulous concept these days. FWIW all of our family and friends were married before having children - but we are late 50s so pretty much standard at that time for everyone. People had a variety of jobs but loosely could all be termed MC, some more so than others e.g. Hospital Consultant as opposed to admin work for the MOD.

All of our daughter's circle of friends have married before ttc - they're all professionals e.g. solicitors, doctors, teachers.

But I think now it seems to be less common to marry and I'd say it's the expectations of family, social circle/colleagues that makes the difference rather than money or class. My cousin's 2 sons have had children without marrying - my cousin and her husband were some of those at the looser end of MC (i.e. admin work), and her children's work = personal trainer and supermarket worker - not sure if you'd class this MC or not. My sister's children (x4) have all married before ttc/having children (she's the hospital Consultant). But I know several young (in 20s/30s) "builders/hairdressers" who presumably wouldn't be termed MC who have married before having children and would have thought it not right if they didn't get married first.
So I'd say it's largely down to expectations of the family, social circle and work colleagues.

@couchlover
Reminds of when Professor Higgins assumed that Eliza’s parents were married when they were actually “living over the brush” .

@user1471519931, I expect you're right re childcare.

Re religion - not a factor for us. Nor is morality. The early 80s were a different time, though. It was probably the tail end of the years where everybody (of every class) was expected to marry before (or very shortly after) living together, whether or not we went on to have children. There was a stigma back then to having children 'out of wedlock'.

I remember a friend who's my age telling me that she had only found out in adult life that her parents weren't married. They had always passed as married because of the stigma. No idea why they hadn't actually got round to doing the paperwork. Their children pressured them into getting married in late middle age!

This is interesting. I do think it depends on the individuals own drive for success that 'maintains' their class.
I come from a lower-middle class family. Both parents married, 2 siblings normal upbringing.
I went to university, got unexpectedly pregnant with my first child (I had been with my now husband 6 years). Moved in with my parents and boyfriend.
I sent her to nursery and my mum helped look after her.
Then in my final year, I had my son (SUPRISE NUMBER 2)
So I finished uni had 7 months maternity leave and went back to work. Bought our first 3 bedroom house in south london, and then... got married 🤣.

So basically I did everything the wrong way around but... have managed to make it work, with pure hard work.

Now I have climbed the ladder to a 38-40k wage in

The only reason I got married (twice) was to protect me financially when I had children. If I hadn’t have wanted children I would never have married. And yes I’m probably middle class now (or at least horribly nouveau as didn’t start that way).

My half sister on the other hand Is the only one of her group with children married because they are better off financially not being and she regrets getting married now. She is not what anyone would describe as middle class at all.

I think it's largely socio-economic. But for me it was a matter of shared values. I didn't want to have children to someone I wasn't married to and I definitely would not have become financially dependent on an unmarried partner.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g If my accountant friends have quietly got married I’d be rather surprised and not a little hurt. We are a group of 4 couples and have all been to each other’s weddings. Except theirs!

Give it time, Millicent! I know a few people whose minds have been concentrated by the approach of old age and sometimes a brush with mortality. Especially accountants.

I'm 34, DH is 33. I think we would both be considered MC in terms of education, wealth, lifestyle etc but he is from a better of background (private school, ski holidays, parents have a heated pool in the back garden etc).

Almost everyone we know is married or engaged. The last couple in our group of friends to get engaged were the subject of a lot of speculation.

I always saw not getting married as being quite hippy middle class.

It has really surprised me the extent to which my (very MC) university friends have all got married. When we were around 25 there was lots of talk of it being just a bit of paper and no need for it, and people were quite surprised when I got married at 28. Now we're 34 and nearly all married - and absolutely all the ones with children are.

Agree. I have never thought about this until a few months ago.
I’m married with offspring. Most people I know are also married with children. I don’t know anyone who is divorced or co-habiting. I don’t know anyone who is a single parent.
Friend of mine have children in the local state school which is a mix of middle class families and those from less prosperous circumstances. We had a conversation about this very point. She found it interesting that the middle class children in her children’s classes without exception had married parents while non middle class were vast majority single parents or living together. I have no idea why this is, but now that I think about it, perhaps economics has something to do with it.

Girls from working-class families are 10 times more likely to become teenage mothers than those from affluent, middle-class backgrounds. Sad, but true. That alone is more likely to see them single parenting in poverty. Single parents are less likely to benefit from marriage.

Children born to cohabiting parents see their parents break up more often than do children born to married parents. Among young children, living in a cohabiting stepfamily rather than a married stepfamily is associated with more negative indicators of child wellbeing. That in turn is more likely to lead to relationship breakdown rather than marriage. It’s very much a class issue with the greatest negative outcomes for children already living in poverty.

Financial hardship puts a huge strain on relationships and it’s much, much easier to enjoy married life with money to buffer the challenges and support fulfilment of both partners. Increased income means less stress, generally. More stable finances tend to surround the better educated, older parents who have created, or been born, into a middle class world.

and they are not married because they'd lose their single parent benefit or something PLEASE don’t perpetuate such utter bullshit! For starters there’s no such thing as ‘single parent benefit’ for another for the purposes of benefits claims the whole household is included regardless of marital status except in the case of death benefits, for yet another the vast majority of benefits claimants are NOT claiming fraudulently which claiming as a single parent while cohabiting would be. Such UTTER CRAP!!!

DFOD!!
Disgusting post!

Marriage benefits women who earn a lot less than their partner, who plan to take years out of work and who are marrying men who already own property.

Wow! People’s lack of knowledge is scary!

I was a sahm when ex and I split. No property, a family car, small amount of money in savings and in joint account, he has an army pension.

Accounts he emptied within days!

As a result of us actually being married I was able to:

Reclaim my half of the money he took out the bank accounts

Easily start cm claim (not that it didn’t take years of wrangling csa & ex to actually get money though!)

Easily start and process benefits claims until I was able to start working.

As part of the divorce proceedings I was awarded money in lieu of my half of the car, and when he hits 55 I can get a small portion of his pension.

If we’d not been married, the money he took from the joint accounts I’d never have seen again, I wouldn’t have got any money re car and pensions

@CayrollBaaaskin I was kinda surprised myself! I went through Facebook friends list most of my friends my age are on it and then I considered those not on it and I honestly couldn’t by going through the list find a mother who wasn’t married before having dc. A fair number of the couples I know lived together before marrying especially when it was a 2nd or subsequent serious relationship but the ones that had dc (I’ve a few who are child free by choice in my circle which is also fairly unusual for my age group) married before dc were born. There were a few marriages where unplanned pregnancies motivated matters but yes all were married before dc were born.

I think it’s sad women falsely believe marriage is anti feminist when largely the opposite is true. We still live an unequal, patriarchal and misogynist society. Most women in heterosexual couples are not the higher earner, are the ones most impacted negatively financially by having dc even if they take minimal maternity leave, the ones most likely to have to take time off if dc are sick or to cover childcare generally (eg school holidays)etc

When society is a lot more equal MAYBE then marriage will be less necessary to protect the majority of women (and children) but as things stand currently and with current law in the uk the fact is the vast majority of women are better off marrying before having dc.

And only a few are religious and even then not especially devout.

All this without a handout from family really? Who paid for boarding school?

Don’t ignore the less obvious advantages you had.

https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

Advantage doesn’t necessarily come in the form of a “handout”

I’d actually define you as upper middle class. What were your parents jobs? Grandparents? What is your job?

@MotherofPearl while it might be unpopular to point it out the fact is that for the majority of women, especially mothers, being unmarried but in a cohabiting relationship does put them at a financial disadvantage. Wills can be changed without a partner knowing or being in a position to change the situation, wills are challenged and challenges are more successful where there isn’t a clear legal connection to the deceased, I’ve seen it happen. Ditto life assurance bequests, naming partner on pension etc.

As a nurse, while next of kin isn’t an official legally defined term, where there’s any dispute to cover their own arses legally medics will also go with the clear, legally probable connections.

I’m also very much socialist and come from a long line of proud socialists including parents who were both shop stewards. Many of my friends are more left leaning too I don’t think that’s necessarily a factor.

My parents married earlier than planned due to mum being pregnant with me. They were already engaged but the wedding was brought forward a year as a result. This was early 70’s where having a child “out of wedlock” was still very much “scandalous” and both parents are catholic too so there was a lot of pressure to marry before mum was even showing with me!

But they weren’t phased about us having dc out of wedlock.

I married well before dc were on the cards for ex and I, though I had a miscarriage at 18 which they didn’t know about until I was married. Different guy not my ex. But we had been together a long time.

When I eventually told them they were hurt I felt unable to tell them, but I wasn’t handling it well, was far from home and my granda had just had a major heart attack so I felt they’d enough on their plate at the time. Then in the years after it wasn’t something that was easy to bring up. It was only when ex and I started ttc that I was emotionally thrown back to that time and I spoke to my mum when I fell pregnant again to let her know, but also to say please don’t get too excited yet because... and I lost that pregnancy too.

Bro had his first child out of wedlock, it was a very on-again off-again relationship, very tempestuous. Parents were supportive and then sadly bro’s ex died and bro became a single dad to his eldest as a result and they helped a lot with that situation. He then met and married his wife who is super lovely and a great step mum and they have dc together too.

Sister, well... that’s a right saga! Eldest was conceived first night they met which would probably have stayed a ons had she not got pregnant, they tried to make a go of it, no 2 was planned and they were living together by this point. He knew she wanted to marry, even just a Jeans n registry office job, plus she was a sahm at his insistence. (Very much a “1950’s stereotype” kind of guy, didn’t do anything childcare or housework related), then they broke up... but would occasionally still sleep together and she fell pregnant again (I suspect possibly planned on her part to try and win him back) but...his then fiancé also turned out to be pregnant so that didn’t work. He barely sees the dc let alone pay cm! Parents very supportive but frustrated at her decisions/choices. Difficult all round.

@iStressheadi but my point throughout is that marriage isn’t just beneficial to the wealthy. Look at my own situation (see start of this post)

op I agree that the pros and cons of marriage v cohabitation should be taught at school. Yes ideally parents would do so but given many parents don’t know themselves. Thank you glad you appreciated my post.

The mum of my dds friend I mentioned earlier was under the false idea that living together x no of years and having dc together gave her some of the rights conferred on married people under “common law marriage rules” which don’t exist in Uk. And I’ve been on many threads where posters believed similarly that eg living together 10 years = claim on their partners property.

i don't need a piece of paper or a ring to tell the world i adore dp that’s not what marriage is for. Also this “just a piece of paper” argument irritates me as it’s nonsense. You wouldn’t dismiss house deeds, graduation certificate or £100 note as “just a piece of paper”

I don’t see it as “morally superior” I see it as a sensible decision that provides some legal and financial protection to mainly women, especially mothers in the event of separation, critical illness and/or death of their partner.

@1990shopefulftm £300?! It’s £125 where I live! What does the £300 include?

Very few people couldn’t stretch to less than £150.

As I said I worked in the industry and in my experience there it’s entirely possible to have a beautiful and meaningful ceremony without spending stupid money.

My own wedding was a “traditional” church & “village hall” do and was very much done on a budget. Yet we had 150 guests (my crazy big catholic family mostly!). Ex wore his army uniform as did his best man, my dress was pre-loved as it’s called now, it was second hand as we called it then but I had it cleaned and altered to fit. Bridesmaids dresses were hired (why this idea fell out of favour I don’t know was the norm then), Church part cost very little, reception was just hire of hall & pay bar staff, decorated it ourselves with items we’d picked up cheaply, dj wasn’t expensive, photographer was a colleague of ex’s starting his own business, cake was made by ex’s brother, buffet “breakfast” provided by the mess at pretty much cost price! Yet a great day was had by all - seriously I get odd comments like “yea I know it ended in divorce but the wedding was a blast!” Largely thanks to excellent dj I must admit as he didn’t try to be trendy or cool and played party favourites throughout. Both my grans up dancing and singing along to “gangsta’s paradise” remains a bizarre but fond memory!

My view is you need to make a conscious decision and be fully aware of the legal and tax implications for you personally exactly. For a few it may not be beneficial to marry, but many seem not to understand the differences and potential implications of not marrying (or indeed marrying)

@peperethecat my heart sinks at those threads too, even worse the ones “I can’t leave I can’t afford to”

Some on mn liken marriage to entrapment - well these women and their dc are even more trapped!

It’s particularly distressing when the situation involves dv.

@Gasp0dethewonderdog there still is a stigma to being a single mum, people won’t admit it but I can promise my experience and even more so my sisters (she has a different surname to her dc) is that there is still prejudice and ill treatment. It’s not maybe as bad as it was in 70’s/ 80’s but it definitely still exists.

The unmarried couples with children that I know - the women want to get married now (although they originally did not) and the men are insisting it’s “just a piece of paper.” And actually in one case the DCs are asking why aren’t mummy and daddy married.

On the other hand friends of my parents who portrayed themselves as cohabiting partners all these years recently admitted that they were in fact legally married but had kept it to themselves! It was done for visa reasons when one had gotten a job abroad.

The middle classes are right.

I’m not married and in a terrible situation with a child and partner separating.

However many of my middle class friends also didn’t marry, but held on to their jobs so are ok. My working class friends all married, didn’t have careers as such mostly, and are divorced and pretty well set up!

I was the stupid one.

I'm in my mid forties in the north , married with 2dc. I'd consider myself middle class.

Around two thirds of my parent friends are married. The ones that aren't either a.don't believe in marriage or b. their dp is bad with money and they want to protect their assets.

We’re MC and not married although we are committed to one another and our children were planned. Everyone assumes we are married. I do correct people sometimes but there isn’t always an appropriate opportunity.

I should say I was born in the 1980s

I think there might be an urban / non urban split here.

I used to live in London and know a handful of MC people who have had kids without being married, in a kind of we're relaaaxed, we're equals, no need to conform to the piece of paper kind of way.

I've moved out to the suburbs though (commuter town that feeds in to London) and amongst my circle there's no one who's not married.

But yes... To your point when there's a post about 'DP' and getting pregnant I do assume that the OP is probably from a WC background, but perhaps I should check my biases / prejudices.

That said, if I were to divorce I wouldn't remarry. I'm pretty well off and it's likely I would lose out if I divorced again.