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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Surprised at healthy people saying they won’t send dc to school until there’s a vaccination

288 replies

sunshineanddaffodils · 21/04/2020 08:47

I absolutely understand that if your dc has a health condition there’s no way you would put in any situation where they could catch covid. Likewise if you or your partner have a health condition or other vulnerable dc. However I am baffled as to why you would not want your healthy dc getting back to school and their friends ASAP but want to wait for a vaccination. That could be years! As long as the vulnerable population remains safe self isolating I cannot understand why there is such horror at the thought of schools reopening.

OP posts:
dottiedodah · 21/04/2020 11:36

You dont say if you have DC yourself .Most people would be wary of sending children into an unknown really.Also Teachers would not be happy either!

Foobydoo · 21/04/2020 11:39

People need to realise the truth in the herd immunity ideology.
Herd immunity takes several generations to develop or it can be gained from a vaccination program.
As soon as the government realised this it was quietly dropped.
There is very little evidence that catching it gives you any immunity at all.

Other countries that have tested properly and had low deaths are not going for herd immunity as there isn't the evidence to support it and they know the death rates will be catastrophic.

Obviously we cannot lock down for years either.
The only way forward is to lockdown until numbers have significantly decreased they slowly release restrictions whist tracking, tracing and isolating. Restricting and checking air travel too. There would be lower numbers contracting covid19 so each person could be hospitalised early if needed as there is evidence to suggest that early treatment with oxygen makes a significant difference to a person's outcome. We are waiting until people need ventilation and it is too late for most by then. We could have the nightingales as oxygen therapy centres with people admitted the minute they started having breathing difficulties.

It is expensive to do this, which is why it wasn't done properly in the first place. What a false economy that was.

MamaGee09 · 21/04/2020 11:40

Until the death rate significantly lowers my children aren’t going anywhere,

According to speculation pubs will be the last place to open, I’m a student and work in a pub why should my children go back to school surrounded by 1000 other pupils and staff while I am safely tucked up at home? Once the majority of life is back to some sort of normality eg everyone back to work , infection rates and death rates drastically reduced then my child will return to school.

middleager · 21/04/2020 11:41

I think location is relevant too. I mean if you live in Brent where there are 350 cases per 100,000 as opposed to Cornwall which has 60 cases per 100,000, then it's very different.

I live in a hotspot. Inner city schools.

TheMagiciansMewTwo · 21/04/2020 11:43

There is very little evidence that catching it gives you any immunity at all.
This and also ...
What a false economy that was
This ^^
At least we can all laugh heartily when the Tories try to pretend they are the party that can be trusted with the economy. They couldn't work out the very simple truth that having a harsher, quicker, shorter lockdown would have had less impact on the economy than this half-hearted, months too late, borders open disaster. They've failed the population and the economy.

middleager · 21/04/2020 11:45

Agreed Magicians

Quartz2208 · 21/04/2020 11:49

There is very little evidence that catching it gives you any immunity at all.

Not that is not the case at all. At the moment the belief is like SARS and MERS it is likely to give you some short term immunity but longer term a vaccine will be needed.

On another thread a poster summed up immunity that we take the absence of concrete evidence as to the length of time of immunity (which frankly cant be done because of the short length of time it has been around) as the evidence of absence of immunity.

As to overall fatality rate look at this

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/antibody-study-suggests-coronavirus-is-far-more-widespread-than-previously-thought

Devlesko · 21/04/2020 11:49

Some parents are shielding, some are high risk. So obviously they don't want Jenny or Johnny bringing deadly virus home from school.

Children have died too, and without underlying conditions. Some of us want to keep our children alive.

HTH.

dottiedodah · 21/04/2020 11:53

Obviously everything carries a risk .However if risks are to be avoided then they should be .Small children ,Reception/year one especially. love to hold hands with each other ,lick their hands and generally touch everything in sight! So not the best infection risk really is it? What is the point in us all being locked down for this long ,just to open up Schools up and expose us all? I agree with PP, no more threads until we hear anything from the Govt please!

LillianGish · 21/04/2020 11:53

Everyone's considerations are different - my dcs are healthy and we have no older, vulnerable family members to worry about. I don't consider going to school anymore dangerous than going to the supermarket which I have been happy to let them do (they are older teenagers). If some people continue to keep their kids off then I suppose that will solve the immediate problem of how to reduce class sizes. Actually I'm more interested to know how teachers feel about going back.

Easilyanxious · 21/04/2020 12:03

It's funny as many are saying how badly we are doing to other countries and we should be more like them but many of these are starting to send or think about sending there children to school obviously not straight back as normal
But it is unrealistic if there is no vaccine to just keep them at home indefinitely unless you choose to continue to home school ( but most of us have to work ) also then you wouldn't be letting your children out to play or taking them out still as risk would be there then so I can't see many people potentially living like we are for potentially years

hardboiledeggs · 21/04/2020 12:05

Being healthy doesn't mean it cant kill you.

Oysterbabe · 21/04/2020 12:06

Yanbu. I'd send mine back now if I could.

WhyCantIThinkOfAGoodOne · 21/04/2020 12:07

@LillianGish

While going to school isn't particularly dangerous for your kids it's obviously much more of a risk than going to the supermarket (this isn't subjective either) you're going to come into closer contact with more people an it will be prolonged contact - I'm assuming your kids don't go to the supermarket for a full day everyday!

WhyCantIThinkOfAGoodOne · 21/04/2020 12:07

*when I say risk I mean risk of infection.

LillianGish · 21/04/2020 12:08

Being healthy doesn't mean it cant kill you - it's a question of weighing up risk. Being a careful cyclist doesn't mean you can't be knocked off your bike, I'd still let my children cycle to school.

noblegiraffe · 21/04/2020 12:09

Interested to know how many parents who would happily send their kids back to a germ pit are also cautiously keeping 2m apart in the supermarket, avoiding touching public handrails and pelican crossing buttons and so on.

LillianGish · 21/04/2020 12:14

I'm assuming your kids don't go to the supermarket for a full day everyday! Grin No. But it still carries a risk. We're in France so I think there's every chance they will be required to wear a face mask and although I'm not entirely sure of the effectiveness of this I think it does at least serve as a reminder that these are not normal times, stay apart, wash your hands, maybe use some anti-bacterial wipes etc. If it was affecting kids in the same way it is affecting old people there's no way I'd be sending them in, but that doesn't seem to be what's happening. As I said before, I'm more interested to know what the teachers think - some of them will be in a more vulnerable age bracket.

Lovemusic33 · 21/04/2020 12:16

YANBU I'd send mine back now if I could

Me too but it’s not just about our kids, teachers will be at risk too and some will have underlying conditions, some will want to shield until a vaccine is found? Will there be enough teachers to actually run schools?

ElizaCrouch · 21/04/2020 12:18

I want my child to get back to school, but only when it's safe. In the meantime we'll home educate. For as long as it takes.

Kazzyhoward · 21/04/2020 12:20

Interested to know how many parents who would happily send their kids back to a germ pit are also cautiously keeping 2m apart in the supermarket, avoiding touching public handrails and pelican crossing buttons and so on.

You don't spend 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, in a supermarket, often forced to sit just inches from other people.

Most people don't need to touch handrails, and those who do can wear gloves.

You can press a crossing button with the back of your hand/knuckle or use a glove or tissue.

Quite a difference. It's not about eliminating risk - it's about reducing risk and most people are only going shopping for half an hour or so, once a week.

Ethelfleda · 21/04/2020 12:25

no more threads until we hear anything from the Govt please!

Yes boss Hmm

noblegiraffe · 21/04/2020 12:27

That’s my point, Kazzy. People being very cautious around their own risk saying they’d send their kids back to school which is way worse than a quick trip to the supermarket.

TheStarryNight · 21/04/2020 12:27

People don’t have enough information yet to perform adequate risk assessment. It’s rational to delay a decision until you have sufficient information to make a reasoned judgement. This is an emergent situation with lots of new, changing, rapidly evolving, sometimes conflicting information in play.

One of the things that is widely known about viruses in general is that some of them can be prevented by vaccination. That is a relatively long standing medical technique that has been applied widely with great success. So it’s not surprising in the face of new and uncertain information people are looking for something proven which confers a degree of certainty- and that’s vaccination.

So people are saying “until we know better, I’m sticking with what I think the gold standard of safety is - a vaccine”.

It’s true that there is risk attached to any action, but usually people have some idea of the level of risk involved (compared to the benefits), and also have the option of taking steps to mitigate those risks.

So for example, in the case of road traffic accidents, people teach their children the Highway Code, accompany them to school, move to areas with less traffic, use crossings and lollipop ladies and campaign for lower speed limits and traffic calming measures near schools.

But Covid-19 is very new. There is emerging new information, sometimes conflicting information about how to slow it, treat it, avoid, who’s susceptible to it. Sometimes that information is supervised by new information. It’s an evolving, sometimes unstable picture. In some aspects, there is not yet enough accurate, reliable information available to understand the disease and it’s risks.

This means that people are unaware in many cases of the level of risk that actually applies to them. And it’s not just that people are unable to make an adequate risk assessment about their health, it’s that this virus is so new that there isn’t enough information available yet to make an adequate risk assessment or take adequate steps to mitigate risk reliably.

It that kind of situation, it’s understandable to position yourself as ultra-low risk taking, because you simply don’t have enough information to make a sound judgement overall.

For example, we’re just starting to discover which health conditions have the biggest impact and why. So at the moment there are some ideas about that, there are some clear directions, but there isn’t an accurate picture yet. So that’s one area of uncertainty.

So some of the conditions that do seem to be relevant are conditions that can undiagnosed for significant periods of time, or can develop over time, for example heart conditions. So maybe seemingly ‘healthy’ people aren’t as healthy as they seem.

OP, you keep asking for links to statistics that would show that people are justified in taking certain stances. But on an emerging situation where there is not yet a stable and trusted pattern of evidence, it is legitimate to err on the side of caution until a stable and trusted pattern of evidence emerges. That hasn’t emerged yet. Robust statistical evidence doesn’t exist yet- either to clearly demonstrate danger or clearly demonstrate safety.

We don’t really know accurately yet how many people in this country have died each day. That’s fairly basic. We’re publishing a figure which is collated together from various sources. The figure published on a particular day isn’t actually “this number of people died yesterday”. It’s “this is the number of deaths recorded yesterday”- there are varying time lags on figures depending on which part of the country is, whether the person died at home or in hospital. Then worldwide, there is confusion about how different countries are recording things, so it’s difficult to it those figures together and start to look for patterns and statistics on a wider scale.

There is also obviously confusion and conflict worldwide on what the best things to do are- for example regarding masks. Advice is being continually revised and updated. In that respect, people often decide not to put too much weight on current advise, in case it changes again. Only a few weeks ago, we were being told that large public gatherings were perfectly safe and unlikely to make an impact.

There are measures we could take as a society which would give people more information- more extensive testing, track and trace etc. This would give people more information and help them form a more accurate picture overall, both of their individual situation and of the overall picture. In this country, we aren’t really taking those steps, which I think adds to people’s mistrust of the situation.

We also don’t have an accurate picture yet about recovery rates, relapse rates, whether immunity is conferred and for how long. So people aren’t yet sure what they are dealing with. Again, that’s a reason to set the bar high on what safe actually is.

It’s also true that the estimation of the probability of extreme events is difficult because of the lack of data: they are events that have not yet happened or have happened only very rarely, so relevant data are scarce. Thus standard statistical methods are generally inapplicable.

LillianGish · 21/04/2020 12:31

some will want to shield until a vaccine is found and that's absolutely fair enough. There will also be some who won't vaccinate anyway (just to be clear I'm not talking about those with underlying conditions which means they can't be vaccinated).