To wonder how schools can realistically reopen when there is still a killer virus about with no vaccine?

[JustCantShakeIt]

I’m not talking about them reopening now, in May or June or even September.

Who is prepared to send their DC into a school with hundreds of other DC, where social distancing and keeping a germ free environment is literally impossible, even with the best wills in the world, when there is a life threatening disease floating about which is highly transmittable and you have no guarantee it won’t make your DC severely ill or die.

Social distancing just between parents will be impossible at my DC’s school of over 500 where we all have to wait outside the main gates at pick up time.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m desperate for schools to reopen before my DC turn completely feral, but I don’t see how that can happen until we have a vaccine. We’re being told to stay home and keep our distance now due to the risk, the risk will be the same next month or in 5 months won’t it?

I’ve not been a part of this current part of the debate, however the NEU have released this petition.

If you are a worried parents, teacher, concerned member of the public etc you can sign

actionnetwork.org/forms/open-schools-when-it-is-safe

To be fair to deliberately coughing it is hard sometimes on a tube when you are squashed in to get the movements concerned not to cough into someone’s face!

@alloutoffucks it’s too early to say but I’d be surprised if this was more dangerous to children than the flu
www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm

My responsibility is for my children. I do not see this as a threat to them. However I would expect the school to exercise its duty of care to teachers by making the decision to keep classes online if there aren’t enough staff who can come in to reopen. Likewise I would expect others who’s children come into contact with vulnerable people to exercise a duty of care by keeping their kids at home. For us however there is practically no risk and we do not pose an unacceptable risk to anyone else given that others take appropriate steps to ensure that shielded members of the population are effectively shielded.

Not do much teenagers quartz.

Anyway mynpoint was the children and their teachers add volume of commuters not about behaviour.

My concern is for everyone including school staff, not just my children.
But I have become aware through this crisis how selfish so many people are. They really only do care about their family.
If I worked in a school after this I would not go the extra mile. Because it is clear so many parents don't care about the staff one little bit.

To be fair to deliberately coughing it is hard sometimes on a tube when you are squashed in to get the movements concerned not to cough into someone’s face!

Yes, agreed. Although some don't seem to even make the effort, or apologise afterwards. Pretty disgusting to be on the receiving end of either way!

That is disgusting, but it is different to what some teenagers were doing before lock down.
Any school has a cohort of kids that do not behave well.
This is different from adults in a workplace. Because of adults behaved like that they would be sacked.
You can't just look at how the ideal child behaves or the best behaved, but what the reality is like in most schools with an average of 27 kids in small classrooms and very crowded corridors.
Maybe not everyone washes their hands after going to the toilet in my workplace? But when I am in the lab we are socially distanced, wearing gloves and observing excellent hygiene practices. Not squashed along corridors with hundreds of others.

A lab isn’t an office environment though. Crowded lifts, kitchens, meeting rooms it is difficult to manage them as well.

I happen to be fine during lockdown, house with garden, 2 jobs easy to from home, 2 kids happy enough and socialising online. My DDs dance, music and chess classes are now online as our their Guides and Beavers. Prepared enough in advance so have tins pasta flour etc. Quite happy

But am realistic enough to know that this can only carry on for so long

I know it is not the same. We have a crowded office, which is why we closed down before lock down. It was too risky.
Kitchens though are easy to manage, and some companies before lock down had already banned most meetings like GSK at least locally.
One of my worries is that furlough will end, our company will try and safeguard us, because they actually understand infection control, and the resulting restrictions will mean far less work done, and the company will close.
We were actually about one of the last ones of similar companies locally we work with to close down before lock down (I do know some of these companies are still doing medical work at other sites).
We would also have to source PPE before we could open. We donated ours to the NHS. Without that we can't work anyway. So if furlough ends before we can buy PPE, we may go under anyway.

Re: Denmark, I might be confusing them with what’s happening in Iceland but aren’t they also closing schools for 14 days and deep cleaning as soon as anyone in the school tests positive.

Given that the concept of testing everyone with symptoms doesn’t seem to be part of any plan here, I can’t see how looking at what other countries are doing would work.

Are cultural differences in how children get to or from school going to make a difference too? The risk profîle must be a lot different in countries where children routinely make their own way to and from school from the age of 6/7.

I can’t imagine how schools, especially primary schools, can have successful social distancing. Neither can I imagine how schools can possibly remain shut until there’s a vaccine. So I suspect schools will reopen, social distancing will happen in name only, and people will get ill at a rate that hopefully won’t swamp the NHS.

I don’t think people don’t care about the school staff. I just think some people care more about the economy. Not in a callous “money is more important than lives” way, but in a “big picture, if the economy tanks to 1930s levels, lots more people will eventually lose their lives, livelihoods and homes, and children will be living in the kind of poverty we haven’t seen for 70 years or more, so society needs to reopen very soon” way. As it is, there will be tax hikes, wage freezes, redundancies, homes repossessed etc - the country needs an exit strategy soon and keeping the schools shut indefinitely won’t be part of that.

No one is saying schools should be shut indefinitely Tulip - just that we want the opening to be planned in consultation with people who understand schools.

I

Plenty of people have said that the schools shouldn’t reopen until January at the earliest, although perhaps not on this thread. There’s definitely an implication that if you want the schools opened at all before a vaccine comes out, you don’t care about school staff. I mean, it’s the basic question posed in the OP - how will it be possible to open schools before there’s a vaccine? Well, it’ll be possible because the government will consider the risk of people getting the virus in the school environment less damaging overall to the country than continuing to have the schools shut indefinitely, or until there’s a vaccine (which is in effect indefinitely since we have no idea when or even if a vaccine will be developed).

If school were open tomorrow my kids would be there pronto!

Tulip

The govt need to do that in consultation with schools. Did you see the NEU letter posted earlier? I think that’s a sound basis for opening.

Children are suffering and dying today because they are out of school. Rates of DV are way up. And that is without even taking into account the horrendous negative impact a collapse economy will have on the life chances of the bottom rungs of society.

Why do people keep using straw men? Of course no one wants schools shut down indefinitely. We just do not want them to open until it is a low risk to schools staff and households of the kids.
Policy should be evidence based. Not this rush of - well we must do something!!!!
Gather the evidence, analyse and then make policy.

Burney

I’m the safeguarding officer at my school. I’m well aware of children’s vulnerability.

Is that part of your job at the moment?

@BurneyFanny What children are dying today?
I have volunteered in DV services. Last year 60% of women looking for a refuge place were turned away because there were no places. I have spoken to women suffering horrendous abuse.
I can guarantee that half the people talking about DV did not give a shit last year.
Reminds me of when we supposedly invaded Afghanistan to free women.
If you want to help women suffering DV, get a major increase in grants so that no woman is turned away.
But I know in a years time most of the people now talking about DV will be silent.

Public health vs economy isn’t a zero sum game. Having a fast exit strategy at this point is not possible and is likely to have a negative effect on both the economy and public health.

There aren’t easy answers here. It’s an unprecedented situation and in this country isn’t going to be helped by a government that people don’t trust.

There won’t be a low risk time to do it until there’s a vaccine, will there? So the government will go ahead anyway. It’s pretty obvious.

Tulip

Have you read the NEU thing I mentioned? Do you think it raises some sensible points?

Well the Germans are starting to reopen schools on May 4th. They're in a better situation than the UK is, but more because of their access to care and testing, not because they have more ICU beds.

I stand by what I've said all along, which is schools in England will start reopening after May half term (Scotland is more difficult to predict because their holidays start so much earlier).

Haven't the German schools been completely closed though?