To wonder how schools can realistically reopen when there is still a killer virus about with no vaccine?

[JustCantShakeIt]

I’m not talking about them reopening now, in May or June or even September.

Who is prepared to send their DC into a school with hundreds of other DC, where social distancing and keeping a germ free environment is literally impossible, even with the best wills in the world, when there is a life threatening disease floating about which is highly transmittable and you have no guarantee it won’t make your DC severely ill or die.

Social distancing just between parents will be impossible at my DC’s school of over 500 where we all have to wait outside the main gates at pick up time.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m desperate for schools to reopen before my DC turn completely feral, but I don’t see how that can happen until we have a vaccine. We’re being told to stay home and keep our distance now due to the risk, the risk will be the same next month or in 5 months won’t it?

I'm vulnerable and would be sending my daughter back as soon as the schools open.

If any member of schools staff who has been identified as vulnerable i.e. receives the annual flu jab, then I think it would be fine to send low risk kids back.

I presume you mean 'stays off'.

That would be c. 50% of our staff.

Also, as soon as children return to school, essentially every child in school, and their households, are joined by a virus transmission route.

So say, Child 1's sister is an asymptomatic carrier (or is infectious but not yet ill). In school, Child 1 comes into contact with children 2-200 - because social distancing in school is impossible, the virus transmits to all those contacts. Only Child 53 becomes ill themselves, but child 87 transmits it to their vulnerable mum, child 120 to their dad who works in Sainsbury's and then spreads it etc etc.

Essentially, the whole school community has become a single 'household' within which the virus can be transmitted freely, by lack of social distancing in school, and then within each of the community's households.

I don't want to pry into people's health but there's vulnerable and vulnerable.

DH's rather gung ho consultant has a list made up of 'likely to die' ; ' 'likely to end up in ICU and die' ; ' probably will get very very ill and might die' ; 'likely to have long term health issues but might not die ' , followed by 'meh, what's all the fuss about? they'll just need hospital and should be just very ill and then fine'.

I am paraphrasing slightly.

None of these are on the shielding list. The bottom category is most asthmatics, for example.

@cantkeepawayforever that's not an issue limited to schools, though. That risk is there for everyone who commutes in and out of cities and works in open plan offices.

That would be c. 50% of our staff.

Considering we are 1-2 years away from a vaccine, staff who are the most vulnerable perhaps need to be laid off or made redundant as they won't be returning to work until they get vaccinated surely?

I'm watching someone in Denmark talking about reopening schools - it's primary only for now and involves sitting 2m apart and not the full capacity of the school - lots of outdoor education she said too.

That risk is there for everyone who commutes in and out of cities and works in open plan offices

It’s not quite the same. Schools tend to be much more densely packed together - I have 30 children per class - on double desks, so two children right next to each other and less than a foot between them and the next pair on either side.

6 classes a day of different groups.

And that’s just my classroom...

And where will all their replacements come from kazzy?? Let alone the complete illegalities of laying someone off for health issues.

Kazzy as unable to work for medical reasons they would get up to a year of salary (full & half salary) before they would need to consider resigning.

Cabbages,

Of course. But the procedures for adults to carry out social distancing and decent hand / bodily fluid hygiene in the workplace are both easier to set up, and more likely to be observed, than those in schools!

cabbages there speaks a person who has not stepped foot inside a school recently...

@Piggywaspushed If I was in the group of would be very ill in hospital but won't die, then I would not want to get corona.

I know there is vulnerable and vulnerable. The shielded group are one and a half million group, and more people have been added to it this week. Most will live in households with others.

There are those in the vulnerable group who are at real risk and those who maybe are not. But the government did previously tell these people they were all at risk and to stay home for 12 weeks. How convinced are they going to be if they are suddenly told they are not vulnerable and to go into work in a school or crowded office? Being told schools can not open for all if they do not go back is hardly a winning argument. And yes I know NHS staff in the vulnerable group are working. NHS staff have also died and are usually reported in the news as having underlying conditions, and they have PPE however inadequate. Teachers and school staff will not have PPE.

Kids in schools are way more crowded together than your average open plan cubicled office and do not behave like adults. Because they are children.

I'm agreeing with you fucks !

I suspect schools will go back, lots of kids will transmit it to households and school staff, lots more people will die. Schools will close again because of a lack of staff because so many are ill. And we will be told the lie that this is a seasonal surge, even though there is zero evidence that this is seasonal.
Sadly I think in the Autumn we will once again see a 1,000 people a day dying. And the same old faces will be on here arguing that nobody could have foreseen this.

@Piggywaspushed Apologies! Alarming that none of those are in the shielded group.
This virus has kind of opened my eyes to how little most people care about ill or older people. They care more about their kids not attending an end of year prom, than they care about Grace's mum dying.
This has made me way more cynical. I have volunteered a lot in the past with kids activities, I am not doing it any more. If I volunteer anywhere it is going to be to help disabled and elderly people that most people don't really care about. Not when it comes down to it.

cant
Of course. But the procedures for adults to carry out social distancing and decent hand / bodily fluid hygiene in the workplace are both easier to set up, and more likely to be observed, than those in schools!

Have you been on a commuter train recently? On some services there is very, very little space and people are quite literally squashed in together. And a lot of commuters are absolutely disgusting, they cough or sneeze over others without any consideration.

I’m a teacher and I think we should be open as soon as possible so that everyone can get back to work and carry on. This was never about ‘not getting’ the virus, it was about spacing out the number of cases over a longer time period so as not to overwhelm the NHS. Most probably 80% will get it. That has been stated many times. 2/3 of the people who have died would have died this year anyway (according to scientists) so the numbers dying will drop as the virus works its way through the most vulnerable. It’s sad and stark but that is the way it is.

cabbages there speaks a person who has not stepped foot inside a school recently...

fucks my DH is probably in the second level down there and is not what anyone would call ill. The point is that contracting Covid 19 would probably kill him.(hence the flu jab annually)

However, The Times article today did soothe ma a bit.

Kids in schools are way more crowded together than your average open plan cubicled office and do not behave like adults. Because they are children.

I meant the people squished on commuter trains coughing and spluttering all over each other who then go into open plan offices and cough over others there. Yes, of course classrooms are more over crowded than most offices, but they are certainly not more over crowded than most peak services running in and out of the cities daily.

It's not yawn cabbage it's a fact. Open plan offices are nothing like schools!

This is why I think they properly need to analysed the data to figure out who is more vulnerable due to underlying conditions and who isnt and figure it out before the 12 weeks is up. Quite a few (such as pregnant women) were on the list because they were not sure not because they were.

Sadly the shielded group may well have to take precautions going forward

Sadly a late autumn/winter peak is built into all of these models and is just how pandemics work. It doesnt mean that between now and then we shouldnt start life again because between May/June-Oct/Nov the long term implications of not reopening is more

But with 92% of deaths being over 60 and 75% I think being over 75 the risk is still in the older age group. This is significant because those needed to restart the economy and ensure that the infrastructure is in place to protect those most at risk arent in that group. Offices and business will open as will schools. There simply are no other options.

I just hope we are sensible enough to hold off on schools until June at the earliest I dont see the need before then. Maybe gradually increasing the number of key workers up from May 11th so you can gradually open up other areas but where people can work from home and keep there children at home they do.

I’m trying to make is the solutions must be out there and people who actually work in the sector should be trying to figure out what they are and make plans to be able to minimise the risks as far as practicable and work out how to do social distancing

Many schools have corridors that are less than 2m wide. We could implement one way systems and have students leave rooms one at a time to maintain the distance. This would increase normal movement time considerably with some students having to make full circuits of a large building to get to the room 3 doors down the wrong way in a corridor on the one way system.. So 3-4 minutes between lessons will become, minimally, 20 - 30 minutes. And that would be in a small school. And that’s assuming there are classrooms big enough to maintain 2 metres a part for up to 32 students. Which there aren’t. So maybe an average day would have, at best, half the normal teaching time available for half the students?

So, half the students in one week, half the next? Teachers working 12 hour days with half the students in for 6 hours then the rest in for the next 6 hours? That would be 60 hours a week before planning and marking.

Changes to curriculum content - less of it - would mean a re-jig of schemes of work. It would also need resourcing. In addition to 60 hours a week plus planning and marking? Exam providers will need to have come up with revised content before we are back in school. Has anyone put pressure on them to help us? Has the Government thought that far ahead? Or will we need to remit our schemes of work 15 times I. The next 18 months to deal with every new discovery as the virus progresses? At what expense continuity - building blocks - of learning?

And we would need to do something for the many children with asthma who can’t be in school. Leading to : We would need to solve technology issues for children with parents who can’t afford it. We would need to pay for broadband for those households who can’t afford it. We would need to solve issues such as poor broadband coverage in rural areas.

Or we could look at renting out community buildings to have more physical space. Who will pay for that? And teachers could somehow manage the distance between buildings between lessons whilst also supervising keeping 2 metres apart in corridors. We could stay in one building to help with that which would result in non-specialists delivering all subjects. OK in Year 7. Not so good when linguist Jane has to deliver A level maths and vice versa.

Who will manage the mental health of students who are isolated? What of parents who need to work but their child is asthmatic? What could we reasonably do with all year 7 children who are asthmatic and can’t be in school for that crucial year of high school?

Will there be adequate PPE for at risk teachers? Or will they be expendable? Will we pay teachers more for all the extra work if we suggested a 12 hour day - like nurses who work double shifts - or will we be expected to get on with it?

If we work a 12 hour day, 5 days a week, what will be the impact on our mental health and physical well being? What about our families? Should we, like health professionals, move to hotels so as not to put our at risk family members at any more risk? Who will pick up that cost? Or do our family members not matter?

Will children exhibiting even the mildest of cold symptoms be kept away from school? Will we have to take temperatures as they walk through the door every morning? How long will that take? Is the equipment to do that ready and available?

It is not workable in most schools. Like nurses without PPE, there will be an expectation we get on with it. Any deaths - and there will be many of both healthy teachers and healthy students - will just be seen as collateral damage. Unlike health professionals, we will be blamed if this forum is anything to go by!

Which would become more overcrowded if all London schools were open to all students and their teachers...