To be so angry at the Chinese government

[HildegardeCrowe]

Because they didn’t shut the wet markets down permanently after SARS so another pandemic was inevitable. The rest of the world is now putting pressure on China to end it’s wildlife trade but this won’t be easy. Most of the world is in lockdown because of this trade and it’s so depressing to think history will repeat itself if China doesn’t get its act together.

The more I learn about how the Chinese abuse wild animals the angrier I get - the latest thing I read about is how they make the lives of bears a misery by extracting their bile.

Surely this is a PR disaster for China?

www.nytimes.com/2020/02/01/world/asia/china-coronavirus.html

@MangoFeverDream where on earth did I say it was irrelevant? Unexpected doesn’t mean irrelevant.

And actually I was living in Asia during the SARS outbreak. I was in Japan and there wasn’t a huge amount of panic about it. That might say more about the Japanese mindset though

And I’m starting to think you didn’t read any of my post - they did learn from SARS. They learnt that it killed 800 people, then died out. Which, unfortunately, was exactly the wrong lesson to learn, as the next virus was much more deadly.

I am criticising them for their lack of foresight.

Ok?

Alexis caught and reported that one too

I'm surprised mn let it remain for so long and that BB is still allowed to post bile

BovaryX love that you just ignore that parts where I actually criticise the Chinese government and pick up on one word Yes they aggressively silenced and disappeared doctors. I also mentioned that in my post.

Sorry that it’s a bit rational and gets in the way of your fevered bashing

Actually SARS had a 10% death rate according to what I've learned by watching the news (I haven't studied it admittedly). It therefore was more deadly, it just wasn't nearly as infectious as COVID-19, which is why that's caused so much more destruction.

Mango?
“You did lob that accusation at me in another thread.”

Well you should have raised it in that other thread. I take each thread separately on its own merits.

You can be angry if you like....but when it comes to actual retaliation, there would never be any - China own so much here - they would just 'repossess' us by calling in the loans

@UtterlyPerfectCartoonGiraffe
Claiming that the regime in China 'just missed it's is incompatible with deliberately silencing doctors by forcing them to confess to illegal behaviour for speaking out about human transmission in December If you were 'rational' you would know that.

Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that Bovary because I don’t really see how you’ve got that from the whole post I’ve written, which was critical of the Chinese government’s response.

Oliver’s mummy
The Wuhan Seafood Market was closed on 1 January, the day after the outbreak was identified as a new virus- 31st December

Exactly.

Weeks after it was first told of this disease

Isn’t the problem that these wet/wild markets are largely underground so difficult to permanently shut down? It’s like pledging to permanently shut down drug dealing - due to the underground nature some will slip through the net, others will constantly create new markets etc.

Also if poor Chinese citizen can’t afford to buy anything else because these markets are dirt cheap, do you expect them to alternatively starve? Until the Chinese government help to support people that can’t afford to eat, there’s no incentive for poorer people to avoid these markets. I don’t think anyone wants to regularly eat rats etc if they have another option.

People in every country treat animals and wild animals like shit, hunting as a “sport” or dog fighting aren’t particularly kind to kind to the animals involved either?

And sorry Bovary all this patronising “educate yourself” and “if you were rational” really detracts from your argument and just makes me want to disagree with you on principal as it’s so patronising. It’s ok just to argue with facts and not personal attacks.

Bovary, your timeline is off
The virus was present in December, not November. It’s not possible for it to have been present in November given how infectious it is and how the disease progresses: On 3 Jan, Wuhan had 44 cases, 11 severely ill and 33 stable with no deaths. It was traced to people who had visited the Wuhan Seafood market in December (not November)

Doctors did start warning about possible human to human transmission until after 7 January when the virus was first isolated and gene sequencing done...not “in December” as youve said.

From there, it only took 2 weeks to lockdown Wuhan and the region, on 23rd January some 60million people (an area almost the size of the U.K. in population).

@UtterlyPerfectCartoonGiraffe

You wrote that the regime can't be blamed because they 'just missed it.' An accident. An oversight. A lack of attention. That is clearly incompatible with deliberately silencing doctors for speaking about human transmission in December. And continuing with annual party congresses in January. By the way? Keep smirking about the origins and trajectory of this global pandemic. Such a good look.

It’s natural to want to find a channel for anger and frustration.

I can’t get too excited about wet markets tbh. It could easily have started in a farming environment. As we live cheek by jowl with animals, we will always be potentially exposed to this.

Only a few national governments handled this very well and they’re mostly Asian, benefitting from their SARS experience. The British government can be criticised on many fronts too.

There you go again Bovary.
You’re reading far too much into one word and not the whole post. Yes they “missed” it because they heard the evidence and still arrogantly assumed it would be a SARS type outbreak. That was their failing. They imprisoned (or worse) doctors telling them it was worse. That was their failing. I’m agreeing with you that they need to take the blame (as I also stated in the post). I don’t know why you’re determined to argue this when when we’re arguing the same point.

Whilst I personally abhor the "wet markets" - which unlike most people on here, I have actually seen (and not just in China either, so it certainly is racist to assume that it is a practice solely associated with the Chinese) it is cultural snobbery to assume that such practices are a reflection on "civilised behaviour". Quite apart from the fact that the Chinese "civilisation" exists when people in this country hadn't quite mastered the construction of mud huts, it is arrogant indeed to fling stones from our glass house where we allow people to rip apart foxes in the name of sport or cull badgers in the name of animal husbandry. And to be clear - I am neither vegetarian nor vegan, but "cruelty" is in the eye of the beholder, and so is what is called "civilised".

Equally, whilst on the subject of wet markets, it's rather obtuse to conveniently forget that many of these sorts of markets around the world exist because of a trade in exotic animals. A trade fuelled by Westerners more than anyone else. It is still, unfortunately, legal to trade many primates in the UK, for example. Where there is a demand, people will fulfil that demand, especially cash poor people. If we stopped the trade in exotic animals that would be one more nail in the coffin of such markets.

The Chinese aren't perfect people. Neither are we. Before we blame them for something that is a fact of nature (zoonosis occurs in nature - so at "best" our human actions merely contribute, not create, issues), perhaps people here should put their own house in order?

Let’s contrast this with the U.K. shall we?
China- 3 Jan, 44 cases, zero deaths. Lockdown twenty days later on 23 Jan
U.K.- 3 March 39 cases, zero deaths. lockdown twenty days later on 23 March

Even though the U.K. had two months more data and the examples of the deaths in China, Italy and Iran, you still did not move any faster than China did.

brownzingss
Markets that deal in wild animals for consumption are catering to wealthy Chinese. These are not cheap products and are not sold in ‘normal’ wet markets where people shop for vegetables, fruit and meat.
This is not a poverty issue.

the virus was present in December, not November

There are reports it was in existence inNovember. By December doctors were being silenced for discussing human transmission. Annual Party congresses went ahead in January. Lockdown didn't happen until January 23rd. Get your facts straight @PlanDeRaccordement

Doctors did start warning about possible human to human transmission until after 7 January when the virus was first isolated and gene sequencing done...not “in December” as youve said

Taiwan had evidence and alerted the WHO and the Chinese Central Health authorities in December 31.

I can’t get too excited about wet markets tbh. It could easily have started in a farming environment. As we live cheek by jowl with animals, we will always be potentially exposed to this

The same cause, twice in less than twenty years. The selling and trading of live wild animals is a big deal, in moral and in health terms. There are photographs of wild animals at Huanan stacked in cages, stressed, it’s very easy for disease to hop species in this kind of environment.

Raising livestock has strict protocol and controls, and yes, learning from mistakes. Another poster outlined the changes as a result of mad cow in the UK. It was an extensive list.

What did China do after SARS?

Nothing.

Yes they “missed” it because they heard the evidence and still arrogantly assumed it would be a SARS type outbreak

Why aren’t you getting that SARS was a big deal? Over 70 people died in Taiwan, over 40 died in Canada, hundreds in Hong Kong.

I lived in Asia then. It was scary times. Obviously nothing like now, but another SARS outbreak would have been a big fucking deal. People in Asia remember this shit, even if it meant nothing to you.

Bovary this is what you posted at 12:52.
You wrote that the regime can't be blamed because they 'just missed it.' An accident. An oversight. A lack of attention

This is what I wrote at 12:21.
“They majorly dropped the ball and should have taken it more seriously, and need to take responsibility for that fact that they didn’t.”

Look ^^ ! There’s me blaming the Chinese government. I didn’t say it was an accident. I said they fucked up with their response. You’ve completely made up what I said to fit your own agenda.

I’ve clarified that point enough, so the fact you keep coming back to it despite me clarifying it makes me think you’re just arguing for the sake of it. But if you can’t back up your argument with anything other than personal attacks it’s not going to be very effective.

Bovary X
I have my facts straight. They are direct from the WHO webpage. But of course, I am sure you have some newspaper with an allegation otherwise.
www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/situation-reports

Mango,
There is no report listed from Taiwan on 31st December on the WHO webpage
www.who.int/csr/don/archive/year/2019/en/