What the hell is wrong with people?!?

[crispysausagerolls]

Went to the supermarket today during their elderly/vulnerable slot. Heavily and very obviously pregnant. Supermarket extremely clear that this is included in the category.

Was literally torn to shreds by all the over 70s, both to my face and in front of me but to each other, about how I wasn’t allowed there and even if I was I shouldn’t be 😱

Aren’t times shitty enough without needing to face down over 70s Regina George and her allies?! How is this necessary?! Even when the supermarket worker made it clear I was indeed allowed in, the bitching continued.

Have managed to purchase some non alcoholic wine for later.

The slot is for elderly AND vulnerable and the government have decided that pregnant is vulnerable right now. You had every right to be there.

Some of the posters on this thread show just how likely this is to have happened to you. There are some awful, judgemental posts. And I don’t think it’s ageist either. You can be a dick whatever your age!

@springydaff There is no treatment for Coronavirus so nobody is getting treatment as such. If you're in a bad way you'll be admitted to ICU and put on a ventilator, then you just have to hope for the best. Old people aren't just being left, they're being admitted to intensive care, some are even recovering. But yes, they are at higher risk. Still no excuse for ganging up on a pregnant woman, who is also vulnerable. They've no way of knowing whether she's got underlying health conditions or complications. Young people are also dying. And you can just as easily be infected by an OAP, lots of them aren't sticking to the advice and are out and about doing non-essential things.

@crispysausagerolls Oh dear, well he's had plenty of time to learn since the days he had nannies, and he should be stepping up now that you're pregnant and in the vulnerable group! Get him told!
But yes, I know it's not the point, you had every right to be there. Unfortunately this situation is bringing out a lot of unpleasant behaviour.

Do people realise that over 65s won't get treatment if they get covid? Ie they'll be left to sink or swim, live or die.

Please don’t spread misinformation. It’s reprehensible at the best of times.

Many people with COVID-19 are currently receiving treatment in hospital. Many are over 65.

I can see why the elderly are terrified. Over 65s will not get ventilators.

Not ideal to have a go, no, but the supermarkets are getting this wrong. I would have been sharp too if someone was jeopardising my life by being there.

OK I'm trying to get this source, hang on..

I am not intentionally posting misleading info. Many older people in my family believe this, it is likely the people in the queue believe it too

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/01/ventilators-may-be-taken-from-stable-coronavirus-patients-for-healthier-ones-bma-says

I can't c+p salient points in this Guardian link, above, from 2 days ago re shortage of ventilators

That article says may do. What you posted is incorrect and false, nowhere and no-one has said that they won't get treatment as standard. Jeez.

So - you said ‘Over 65s will not get ventilators’, while the reality is very different. The BMA guidance you refer to says the following if - if the system is overwhelmed:

To maximise benefit from admission to intensive care, it will be necessary to adopt a threshold for admission to intensive care or use of scarce intensive treatments such as mechanical ventilation or extracorporeal membrane oxygenation,” it says.

“Relevant factors predicting survival include severity of acute illness, presence and severity of co-morbidity and, where clinically relevant, patient age. Those patients whose probability of dying, or requiring a prolonged duration of intensive support, exceeds a threshold level would not be considered for intensive treatment, though of course they should still receive other forms of medical care.

I don’t deny that this is particularly terrifying for older people and those in higher risk categories. Its awful.

But spreading scare stories such as ‘not getting treatment’ later downgraded to ‘won’t get a ventilator’ (when challenged) when the reality is ‘may not if the system is overwhelmed and there are not enough ventilators in a particular hospital at a particular time’ is really not ok and is feeding that fear further. Please stop.

What's with the Jeez? Do you think I've intentionally posted misinformation. I am currently trying to verify the source ffs.

Suffice to say MANY older people believe this. Which could account for op's experience in the queue.

Younger people have a much better chance of survival, older peoples risk goes up dramatically. There shouldn't be slots at supermarkets for them to be together.

No wonder people believe it with people like you spouting it, be careful how you word things. May not is a world away from won't.

I'm not a fucking journalist. I posted what I believed to be the case - as many believe to be the case and im trying to verify the source.

The BMA guidance is here.

Your common sense would have told you that, given the numbers currently dying in hospital, your statement that ‘over 65s won't get treatment if they get covid? Ie they'll be left to sink or swim, live or die.’ could not possibly be true.

Your sense of responsibility should have told you to check your facts before stating no one over 65 would get a ventilator as a fact. Stating ‘facts’ that you aren’t 100% sure of spreads misinformation and fear among those who are already frightened. Better to think twice, check twice before reposting or sharing something potentially frightening or inflammatory.

We all get this wrong sometimes but now more than ever it’s really important to make every effort to avoid spreading information that may not be true. When in doubt, check the source first.

There is no source because no one has said that, at any point. If it comes to it there are criteria applied and very hard decisions made about who receives treatment, yes, and one factor could and will likely be age. That is nothing like saying no one over 65 will get treatment, and spreading more hysteria isn't what anyone really needs.

Duly corrected. You are right and I was wrong. I unreservedly apologise and will be careful how I word things in future.

However, how would it be for yous if you knew that, when push came to shove, ie extreme circumstances (and these circumstances ARE extreme) your treatment would be withdrawn.

This is what older people are facing and they're terrified. Understandable, no?

@springydaff

I am also terrified. I am not thinking about it because it would actually be too upsetting to imagine giving birth when I don’t know how the hospitals will be, when I don’t know if I or my baby will get sick. When I don’t know what the implications of this virus are on foetuses and newborns. There is not enough data. It’s an extremely scary time to have a vulnerable little baby with no immune system, and to go through the pretty painful and scary process of labour not knowing how many staff members will be there or who will or won’t be infected. A woman in her 20s died just after giving birth with supposedly no underlying conditions due to Coronavirus.

We are all fucking scared. It doesn’t give anyone the right to be a dick.

However, how would it be for yous if you knew that, when push came to shove, ie extreme circumstances (and these circumstances ARE extreme) your treatment would be withdrawn.

As I clearly said in my post, yes it is.

But again you are saying ‘would’ rather than ‘may’. As the guidance states, there are many factors that would be a factor in such a difficult decision for a doctor.

OK, I'll just dust up my job application to the Sun, Radlett.

Oh wait, except I'm not a journalist.

springydaff how would you describe 2 elderly ladies who crowd round a vulnerable person, criticise them in a manner they are intended to hear and then disbelieve his reasons for being there or that anyone under 70 is allowed? I can't actually think of a polite term to use.

I think the slots are a bit silly anyway. They’re bunching vulnerable people together in one space to prevent them catching a virus which could kill them. If even one of the elderly or vulnerable people in that store unknowingly has covid, they could pass it on to many other people most at risk. Makes little sense to me.

As I've said before, country, if in doubt, interchange any names you may want to use for old people with names used for black people. See how it sounds. It's very clear then whether it's acceptable to use those names, regardless the circumstances. I use the analogy with racism because, thankfully, racism is fully recognised for what it is. Ageism is lagging behind, somewhat. Especially on this eye-watering thread, where casual ageism has has had a fairly free rein, with a sprinkling of toxic ageism thrown in now and then. It seems MN also agreed that your description of two older women was offensive and ageist so let's all learn from that.

I'm sorry you're terrified, op. It must be so frightening for you, I really do feel for you. It is terrifying times. I hope everything goes well for you

Oh hush springy. When you're in a hole, put down the bloody spade!

OK, I'll just dust up my job application to the Sun, Radlett.

Oh wait, except I'm not a journalist.

Wh are you obsessed with the idea that journalists are the only people who should bother if their statements are accurate and not unnecessarily fearmongering?

In an age of social media we are all publishers and disseminators of information. We should take that seriously particularly in a national and global crisis. If what we’re stating as fact has the potential to frighten or get people to behave in a certain way, we should all check our sources first and perhaps exercise a little humility when we get it wrong - and then try to get it right the next time to help dispel misinformation.

For example being really clear that ‘will’ and ‘may’ aren’t synonyms.

What?? I don't understand. I've apologised, is that enough? Or should I get whipped. Maybe that's it.

Older people may, or may not, get life-saving treatment withdrawn if there is an unthinkable Sophie's choice situation (God forbid).

This won't happen for younger people. Not may or may not. It won't.