Why is there so much hostility against teachers on MN?

[Bulb1976]

Is it jealousy? The daily teacher bashing threads on here are ridiculous.

Do you blame us for schools closing?

CountFosco I tried to make sense of your post, which I’m sure makes more sense to you.

Schools are not childcare- we educate children and get them through assessments. Unless you are saying childminders also do the same, then no they are not the same.

I wouldn’t care what a bunch of people with absolute non jobs think about teachers.
@LexMitior, you know comments like this really aren’t helpful. It’s condescending and rather mitigates your argument.
I do hope your job is vitally important. And What’s with all the middle marketers nonsense?

I think people are incredibly condescending about teachers, nurses, social workers and so on. These people are really important. They deserve respect.

The kinds of demands placed on teachers and their support staff is ridiculous. The expectations are huge. I don’t think people who don’t actually do jobs which involve caring or teaching or making assessments of child and adults have a clue and should exercise some restraint. They can go to an office or a shop and have the resources to do their job; their job matters only to them and their family. It’s not a public service, nothing like it. It doesn’t have that responsibility.

People who work in environments where the bottom line is profit should gain a little more wisdom and appreciation for people who actually do jobs that affect people for the rest of their lives.

"'Schools aren't childcare' is belittling to childcare workers, many of whom have (teaching) degrees and work long hours on NMW delivering the EYFS. It's a big bugbear of mine and yes, I have argued the point with the teachers in my family who have said it because I think it's inappropriate to belittle those who are doing a similar job for less money*
I've never known anyone say 'schools aren't childcare' to belittle childcare providers. It's just a statement of fact we aren't. I couldn't work in childcare for love nor money. They're incredibly talented at what they do and I would be terrible at it.

But schools aren't childcare and sometimes people need reminding of that for example when they complain that the PD days are when works for the school calendar and instead claim that schools are shutting for no reasons, maybe we should fine the teachers for taking the day off (even after people have said PD days are on top of children's term time).

I've also seen the phrase 'schools aren't childcare' when parents have complained that school have put their child into the after-school wraparound care when they've been 20 mins late to pick their child up, or they've complained that the extra-curricular club has been cancelled and what are they meant to do because they have work (enrichment clubs are optional extras provided voluntarily by staff and are not childcare to allow people to go to work).

It's not belittling anyone to point out the difference between jobs. I had to remind an NQT once that there's a difference between a form tutor and a counsellor, because they were trying to take on way too much for their lack of experience and qualifications. I wasn't belittling counselling. I was saying that just because jobs have similarities doesn't mean they are interchangeable.

And the holidays . Even though they’re not paid for the holidays

So TA’s /SSA aren’t actually paid for the holidays, The job will advertise £17,000 pa full time. But it will be pro rate because they then take off the holidays excluding 5 weeks. There’s no way you can earn a full time wage because of those holidays.

Teachers get £25k pa upwards. And that’s what they get paid. It made a massive difference

LexMitior
surely everyone deserves respect? (unless they have committed some personal offence or crime )
I respect the person who serves me in the co-op, as well as my GP, my kids teachers, the binmen, the person who started their own business etc. It doesn't have to be either or.
As well as public service jobs we need people to do a whole variety of jobs (as is evident at the moment) A person working in the supermarket , a food factory, farm labourer etc wouldn't neccessarily be seen as a public service job usually but we would all (even teachers) be pretty screwed without them at the moment!
What about IT people keeping up with the huge demands on internet platforms and broadband right now? Heck I'm even finding new respect for HMRC and the amount of new shit theyve got to deal with and I never thought I'd say that!

I agree @stripey so many employees of differing sectors right now are all doing their bit to keep the wheel turning. Teachers are important but equally so is the guy who collects my rubbish, and the woman who’s working overtime in my local co-op who kindly put me aside a formula when I’d been to 8 supermarkets and shops after work to try and find him one.

If there’s anything that can come from this thread is the reminder that we’re all important and working hard and deserve to do so without scorn or disrespect.

@LexMitior. All people deserve respect. Regardless of their job. And jobs you may consider non jobs are actually important.
I am an HCP, so public service job. Lots of responsibility. However, do I think the barista in the hospital cafe does a non job? Of course not, I’m bloody grateful I can get a decent cup of coffee at work.
What job do you do?

What is a HCP?

@Stripeyfrog, ah yes, good point about the IT wizards!. I’d be stuck without them.

HCP =Health care professionals

@Bulb1976, health care professional. I’m trying to be vague for anonymity reasons

Ooh, posted too soon. Clinical psychologist. Most people seem to think that’s pretty easy too and reckon they could do it. Just talking, innit?

I don't remember anyone saying that schools "are childcare" on Mumsnet. It's the teachers who say this, generally in response to a complaint about a school closure, and which ignores the fact that society is now built around double-income families being able to send their kids to school during the day.

I’ve got a degree in psychology and a MSc in Cognitive Psychology so I can assure you I don’t think a CP is an easy job.

Schools are not childcare - we educate children and get them through assessments

And my children's (outstanding) nursery did exactly the same, they delivered the EYFS, assessed the children and did everything their (outstanding) infant school did. There was no difference in the education my summer born child and my winter born child got at the age of 4 in the two different settings, both are educate children through play. And childminders are assessed by Ofsted just like schools are.

And isn't it funny how all the school are still open to provide childcare for the key workers in the current crisis, it's almost like providing childcare so parents can work is a crucial part of what schools do. State schools were actually established in the 19th century to provide childcare so parents could work.

And my previous post? It is complex and there are various concepts touched on but basically:
Some teachers are good, some are shit. The shit teachers complain about how their job is uniquely difficult. The job is secure so the shit teachers don't leave. Some of the good teachers leave for better paid, higher status jobs. Most teachers are female, female dominated professions have lower staus and pay than male dominated professions. Peoole who have low status jobs are criticised by others.

@LeMarais - I’m content that what I do matters. But public sector (though also private before).

I don’t deal in “everyone needs respect”. I’d say if that were true then you wouldn’t need to claim it. It’s just nice hand wringing now people realise they need the NHS to work around the clock just to stabilise matters. That teachers need to put themselves on the line to look after children. That the police aren’t spat at by idiots who claim to have COVID still have to tell people to go home. That the courts can stay open to deal with crime, which may rocket as the police are elsewhere.

We are all about to find out how essential we are; a nice cup of coffee isn’t important. It is nice, I like coffee too but 20 years ago the coffee in the NHS was not so well provided for but there were more resources. I would trade every bloody Costa inside a hospital for a decent canteen for staff and paying those workers proper wages, not NMW.

What qualifications are required to be a childcare provider?

And let me be frank as your update makes as much sense as your previous post, you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder about teachers. You clearly know very little hence your “ The job is secure so the shit teachers don't leave”. If you had any actual idea of what goes on in teaching (having relatives in the profession doesn’t make you an expert) you wouldn’t spout such utter nonsense.

I don't remember anyone saying that schools "are childcare" on Mumsnet. It's the teachers who say this, generally in response to a complaint about a school closure, and which ignores the fact that society is now built around double-income families being able to send their kids to school during the day
The complaints about PD days, holidays, why staff are wrong to cancel entirely optional enrichment clubs, why school staff should babysit their DC whilst they turn up half an hour late to pickup and so on all essentially say 'I view school as childcare'. Sure, people don't explicitly say it, but when people are complaining that school had the audacity to expect them to pick their child up on time instead of when it suits it's essentially the same message.

Pointing out the difference between school and childcare isn't ignoring that many families have two earners. It's pointing out the difference between school and childcare when the existence of school hours and school holidays are hardly a surprising revelation that sneaks up on people when they choose to have children.

The vast majority of parents work their hours around school or arrange appropriate childcare via childminders or wraparound care or family. The minority take the mick.

I think a lot of it is jealousy, of the holidays, no weekends at work, no night shifts etc, ease of childcare etc. I think it’s a difficult job, but compared to professions like nursing it is well paid with good hours and holiday etc. I used to work in the NHS as biomedical scientists on a 24/7 shift pattern and it was gruelling, no set shifts so a mixture of early starts, lates, 12 hour weekends and nights, lone working, on call, I was running an entire pathology department and paid peanuts for it despite having a science degree and post grad training. Yet all I saw on facebook from my teacher friends were countdowns until their next holiday, weekends spent with family and friends, long summer holidays off travelling, every bank holiday off, teacher training days off etc and yet they were complaining frequently about how hard they have it. That kind of thing did get my back up, I also knew from speaking to them they were paid very well in comparison to myself and other HCP, lots of extra payments for various things (not saying they didn’t deserve the extra pay, but it’s not as poorly paid as people make out).

Like I said, it’s a hard job, it’s not as easy as most people believe and it’s not something I would ever want to do, but a lot of teachers really aren’t doing themselves any favours not acknowledging the huge advantages they have over other professions and constantly complaining how hard done by they are.

@LexMitior, I can tell you don’t deal in everyone deserves respect. And as for if it was true, you wouldn’t have to say it, come on now. What utter tosh. Plenty of things are true but still need reiterating.
Right, now to Costa. You do know that the NHS is not funding their hospital cafes, right? That they are paying to have concessions there? Which brings money into the NHS? The reason we are under resourced has bugger all to do with Costa but everything to do with the govt., who have consistently underfunded us for years.
You may feel that for profit businesses are not important but they are another revenue stream to us. Public and private services can be mutually beneficial, as in this case.

I know several small business owners that have had to close due to gov regulations. They have responsibilities to pay rent/rates/employees/suppliers and bills while receiving no income. That's a pretty stressful position to be in , and not just affecting their own family (no obviously not the same stress as NHS, emergency workers or teachers but naive, possibly insulting to think it's an easy or "non" job)

@LeMarais

No I don’t - it’s just lip service at a moment when it couldn’t mean any less. My experience is that people in the UK are quick to moan about public services but disinclined to vote for parties that will fund them properly. That is now biting us all, but the overall impact of CV is going to change how public services operate at all here.

People totally overestimate their importance - they should be staying at home. But they aren’t. That’s how little effect the Government has on people. There are endless threads about people here saying “but I am special and I get to go out and breach government guidelines”.

That’s pretty disrespectful to everyone in public service who is working to try and deal with this now.

I recall seeing a Burger King in Charing Cross - presumably it cut out the middle man and encouraged the grossly obese, those with heart problems to just load up before and after their appointments. Costa does not serve healthy food but mostly gussied up fast food. I’m sure their presence is due to lack of funding, but the cognitive dissonance you would need to have to say this is the best that could be done is amazing. It’s just a very cheap solution.

Can you really say you wouldn’t prefer a decent canteen where you could eat something not made in Park Royal by someone not on a zero hours contract?

I dont think teachers to get hostility, some maybe annoyed as teachers think they are hard done by as they dont work 9-5, however many many professions also don't work 9-5 and still have an additional work load to take home/work longer hours etc... and that's irregardless if you get 5 weeks annual leave or 13...

The only place I see this on is MN however my RL teacher friends (HOD, HOY etc..) simply don't moan and bitch that they have it worse

Thats just my assessment of the whole teacher crazyiness over my numerous years on MN.

Elsie a biomedical scientist in the nhs earns a similar amount to a teacher.