To try cry it out

[Pippinsqueak]

Please be gentle, first time chronically sleep deprived mum of a 14th month old baby that is breast fed to sleep and when she wakes. She wakes almost hourly and has done since birth. I'm starting to loose it.

Aibu to try gentle cry it out? I don't even know where to start as I've always avoided it as I was told it's not the right thing to do by health visitors/gps etc. She is also still in our room in a cot bed on the other side so was thinking to move her in there soon.

Any advice on cry it out ? Also I am seeing a breastfeeding specialist when c-19 is over to wean off boob

Thanks in advance.

@Piglet89 I'm using little ones, did you sleep trainer advise against it?

Hello, no I didn't mention it to her at all - and actually the Little Ones schedule was very near to the daytime routine she advised; but different in a couple of crucial places - significantly nap length.

@piglet89 I'm breaking my back to try and follow the nap length. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong do you mean the 2 hour lunch nap?

Also piglet surely sleep training does teach your son that you're not there for him day or night (say outside of major emergencies). Surely that's the whole point - you want to teach him that while you're there for him during the day, at night he should "self soothe" instead of relying on you to reassure him. I genuinely wasn't actually saying that in a judgemental way, but rather in a matter of fact kind of way. I think you interpreted it as judgement?

But Sunshiness - you haven't actually answered the question @Pentium85 asked about what people in that situation should practically do if they do not have a support network. Presumably just grin and bear it?

Life is a constant weighing-up of risks. Allowing a 14 month to continue waking so regularly during the night comes with two significant risks that I can think of:

1. The child is sleep-deprived and there is a risk that brain development is affected by that sleep deficit.

1. The parent is also sleep-deprived and consequently not alert enough to parent responsibly during the day, significantly increasing the risk of dangerous or fatal accidents inside or outside the home (other posters have alluded to this).

For those reasons (among others) I simply do not agree that such frequent wakings in a toddler are healthy (although, without parental intervention, they might well be "normal"). However, extrapolating that argument, many behaviours in young children are deemed "normal" or "natural". For example, some might class biting in frustration as normal. But it doesn't mean we, as parents, may absolve ourselves of the responsibility to teach healthier behaviours - for the good of all concerned.

And, yes - our sleep consultant explained that she's in the business of teaching children to sleep independently and I agree that is a healthy thing. As I've said above - I don't think that his learning to self-soothe is a bad thing. He's learned to do it like a champion now and is consistently much more content during the day for having had a solid night's sleep. As am I. Win/win all round.

I should say - he's doing it like a champion FOR NOW.

Far be it from me to complacently assume this is going to be smooth sailing from now on in...everyone on this thread is big enough and ugly enough to recognise that babies are nothing if not curveball-throwers!!!

I agree piglet. Everyone can weigh up the risks for themselves and as they apply to their particular situation. Surely it helps to talk openly about all the risks then, though, not downplay some of them or silence people by calling them "guilt trippers" not worth listening to. I'm highlighting the risks of unintended impacts on the relationship with the child, and of falling prey to sleep consultants who profit from making mums needlessly feel like a failure - I can't see how that's not something a mum considering sleep training would want to be aware of, to include in her weighing up of all the pros and cons.

The thing is teaching a child to stop biting protects others from harm, and it is possible to do that without making your child feel bad. Letting your child cry for an hour is quite horrible, so surely shouldn't be done lightly or for no good reason.

Jut to clarify I don't expect her to sleep through, even waking just three times a night would be a dream to me.

She is in the process of dropping her second sleep of the day.

Yesterday she only had 1/2 hr nap all day (despite me trying a second nap) but she was still up all night again. Yes she was over tired but she can have e two sleeps, three good meals, plenty of fresh air/love/etc and still wake up 8 times.

14 months is too long, she's going in her own room shortly and I'm going to go from there.

Also just to point out five months ago I was so exhausted I made a monumental financial error because I was sleep deprived which can't be undone and as a result my husband and I have to pay more money extra (we don't have) each month, I'm glad it's been only that so far and no an actual accident ie car or with a patient at work

But you're making some big leaps there. I didn't feel at all like our sleep consultant made me feel like a failure! She listened to the problems, she guided us to implement a practical plan of action and it worked!

The bottom line is - you're saying "I don't think you should sleep train. These things helped me.." Several of the solutions you have suggested to the issues aren't workable for us:

1. Going to bed when our babies go - not acceptable because we feel entitled to have a small portion of our day be adult time.

1. Mum playing with child while you nap - not workable as we don't have family nearby to take on that role.

1. Rolling with the punches and accepting I'm going to be woken multiple times at night - can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not about to just accept broken sleep for months on end when I will eventually have to return to work in an intellectually demanding role in which I'll eventually be disciplined for sleeping (perhaps quite literally) on the job.

@Pippinsqueak I found moving my DD into her own room helped immensely.

Pentium I don't know, I think it is incredibly incredibly hard without a partner or any family help whatsoever. I just don't think I would be able to sleep train even then. So I'd have to grin and bear it to the best of my ability as piglet says, I'd go to bed at the same time with baby, cosleep, roll with it, probably be rubbish at work for a year, probably not have a spotless house, seek out friends shoulders to cry on every now and then. Of course I don't know what it would actually be like or what I'd do. But does that mean we should downplay the risks of sleep training, or refrain from suggesting any alternatives? No, sometimes it can still make a difference to feel supported and not alone, and to know its not forever, and later on that person might be glad she pushed through. Or there genuinely was no other alternative - then surely she wouldn't have any reason to feel bad about that or judged.

piglet Then why do you feel defensive? It sounds like you're happy with your choice. Why does it matter then that I'd choose differently myself.

“Probably be rubbish at work for a year”.

That’s just totally anathema to me. I don’t understand why all my career ambitions and achievements should be put on hold simply because I have a young child. For me that is a huge mistake; I am a person with several rôles independent of my role as mother. And for me, it’s wrong to waste my talents at work by being rubbish at it for a year, not to mention selfishly putting my colleagues under pressure because my child doesn’t sleep properly.

I just don’t understand why, when a person disagrees with another’s view on MN, that person is frequently accused of defensiveness. Part of having a healthy discussion often involved defending (Or arguing in favour of) one’s own approach. It doesn’t mean I’m at all unhappy or regretful about it! I just disagree with you!!!

Okay, so that's your choice then. I value my mum role and my relationship with my child more highly for now than this one year of my career and my relationship with my colleagues.

Again I actually agree piglet, and I was very happy to have a discussion with you and your responses have been very fair and respectful. But others accused me of being a guilt tripper and a horrible person basically, just because I mentioned the possible risks of sleep training.

The OP asked "wibu to sleep train?" Surely now it sounds like the response should have been "Well think about which of your roles you value most, also these are the different risks with it, which of these risks do you feel most able or unable to accept etc". Not "of course, you'd be ridiculous to accept that a 14 mo would wake that often, and anyone saying different is just out to make you feel bad and not worth listening to".

The problem is that 'do what suits you' is then undermined by the accompanying 'I value my relationship with my child more' and other stuff that suggests that the other person doesn't. It seems impossible for people to say 'It's not for me but if it works for you great' without using niggly little phrases to virtue signal that you are a better parent in some way. 'm sure you don't value your relationship with your child any more than @Piglet89 does and to assume so because you choose a certain way of parenting is very narrow-minded. I value my relationship with my child more than anything, but that doesn't mean I place no value on my own health and time.

Ahhhh what a debate!

I for one never understand why you go to the hospital if you break your leg, you go to an estate agent to sell your house etc all because there are people trained to do a job, but yet a sleep consultant is dismissed, even though they are trained to do a job that people need help on.

Babies do not come with a magic help book, that sometimes means we need to ask for help. Whether than be from your mum or a sleep consultant.

I do absolutely fundamentally believe that when a mother considers the 'cry it out' method, they have exhausted all other options.

Obviously no mother wants to leave their child to cry, and it is often the very very last resort, and they have already considered all options because hearing your child cry is difficult, so why on earth would someone even consider this without researching all facts first?

Babies need good sleep to develop, and parent needs good sleep to function.

Whether you choose to get good sleep through co sleeping, through having good sleep cues, through allowing them to cry, there is not enough evidence for any of the methods to make one superior.

Make a decision that is good for the family as a whole, not just baby.

Des But piglet literally said she valued her career and colleagues too much to want to be rubbish at work for a year! Whereas I don't value my job and colleagues that highly. To me it sounds like it does come down to that. We made different choices based of valuing things differently. Why can't I say matter of fact things like that without being accused of virtue signalling - to me that is what makes it sound like the other is defensive, and hence potentially not actually comfortable with their choice after all. Otherwise surely both sides feel happy now because they confirmed for themselves that they acted in accordance with their values, so all good. And OP can think about what she values the most,based on our different reflections.

To be honest Sunshiness you have personally used emotive, guilt tripping language and then wonder why people take offence?! Mothers who don’t want or can’t co sleep, go to bed at 7pm have other children and/ or a job don’t love their children less than you, they don’t care about their children less than you. Most people in RL seep train in some form. Do what works for you but your language is condescending, patronising and you aren’t oblivious to that!

Pentium Because sleep consultants have a conflict of interest, they have a financial interest in convincing you that your child has a "sleep problem" that needs fixing when their sleep is probably actually biologically normal.

I don't think everyone who does cio has exhausted all other options - based on my experiences I believe many vulnerable young mums are misled into thinking they have to do it because it's best for their child even if it goes against their own instincts. That's the bit I find unethical,especially if it is for financial gain.

@Sunshiness

I do think "value" is the wrong word.

Some people don't have a choice. If you're sleep deprived, and cannot do your job, you have a chance of the losing said job, which would have negative implications that are far bigger than a few nights of allowing baby to cry.

I have the luxury, and oh my word I know it's a luxury, of being a SAHM so I nap when baby naps and can have days where I stay in my PJs if it's been a tough night, but I have no doubt at all that I would not have been able to effectively do my job if I had to return to work