To try cry it out

[Pippinsqueak]

Please be gentle, first time chronically sleep deprived mum of a 14th month old baby that is breast fed to sleep and when she wakes. She wakes almost hourly and has done since birth. I'm starting to loose it.

Aibu to try gentle cry it out? I don't even know where to start as I've always avoided it as I was told it's not the right thing to do by health visitors/gps etc. She is also still in our room in a cot bed on the other side so was thinking to move her in there soon.

Any advice on cry it out ? Also I am seeing a breastfeeding specialist when c-19 is over to wean off boob

Thanks in advance.

But many of us don’t have a mother local to us who can play with our child while we nap, you see.

I did cry it out to extinction with my son and now he sleeps in his cot in his own room 1900 to 0600. That sleep consultant and her support and advice was the best money I ever spent - because my son’s poor sleep habits and his consequent disruption of my sleep were making me a poor mother when I was “awake”!

@pandarific I can't work out how to on you, I'm on the app. Do I have to go to the main website to do it, thank you for the info

Totally everything @Sunshiness said

also in this current climate of self isolation I don't have the support network ie my mum and dad to take her on the weekend when I don't work for an hour so I can nap. As for napping during the day well I'm at work so that can't happen. I already go to bed at 8pm when she does every night. I have accepted she's a crap sleeper but it doesn't help.

I agree that it may be natural for her to be like this but society mean I have to work, I have to drive, I have to function and don't want to get to a point where I make a mistake in either of those parts of life minor or major all because I'm tired.

If I could afford to be a stay at home mum and money was no object then this sleep issue wouldn't be as bad. The fact that I, like so many others I understand this, have to function in society means after 14 months of extremely broken sleep something needs to be done

When my newborn was about 4 weeks old earlier this year, I drove my car (with DH, 2yo DS and the baby) into 3 lanes of oncoming traffic, I was that tired. It’s literally dangerous to be so tired, although obviously one expects sleep challenges with a newborn. 14 months is too long, IMO.

(To clarify- because I got confused in my exhausted state, not in an attempt to end it all!)

I just meant, if we didn't have such a culture of making it acceptable, we would all look for any alternatives to getting more sleep that we can - cosleeping, going to bed very early, relying on partner or family or childcare - whatever works for a given person and their circumstance.

I agree regarding the constraints of work life making mothers' (or any carers for that matter) lives very hard,if not impossible. But rather than selling sleep training as the logical and unproblematic consequence - where then our children bear the cost - we should demand change of these working conditions.

Piglet I can see that it will feel like money well spent because spending a lot of money makes it feel like "expert" advice and therefore makes it "the right thing to do" even against your own instincts - it's like the expense redeems the bad feelings

I don't want to make you personally feel bad at all - I'm sure you did what you felt was right in your circumstances - I know circumstances are very hard for many. I'm just angry at sleep consultants unduly capitalising on the pressure that's put on mothers as it is.

@sunshiness and others I appreciate your views however OP is at breaking point which is obvious from her posts. She is on here for advice, please don't make her feel any worse.

OP I think the first move would be to get your baby into her own room, you might be disturbing each other. I was in your position even though my baby is younger. I moved him into his own room and thought I'd be across the landing all night. In reality it reduced to about 3 times a night.

I'm now at the point where I want to stop breastfeeding and have started night weaning 3 night ago. I sent my husband in, my baby settled straight away for him . Next to no crying and last night he slept 7.15pm- 5.30am, the stiff dreams are made of! Typically I was wide awake at 2am!

cosleeping, going to bed very early, relying on partner or family or childcare what a gilded life you live!
For what it’s worth I hate sleep cosultants too- it just takes some perseverance from the parents.

be angry at whoever you like @Sunshiness but sleep consultants have helped a hell of a lot of people, and it's a free world.

We both need to work from home, we have a toddler, we need to sleep. The sleep consultant I'm speaking to is fine with using gentle methods, I bloody hope it works. 75 quid which I can afford is well spent imo if it means I am productive and not a ratty unproductive ragebag that fantasises about living on my own on a desert island and sleeping for 100 years.

It would be lovely if I could go to sleep at 8pm or something but a) when do we clean the house? Do we just live in a shit pit with sticky floors and dishes everywhere? Lovely, that will really help us get through this horrendous time b) like I can actually sleep at 8pm - ha! c) I'm supposed to be picking back up on my work after hours, because of no childcare because of a global pandemic, so that's not going to work and d) if I did actually manage to sleep at 8pm, that means literally no downtime for me, at all. No listening to audiobook as I stack the dishwasher. No watching breaking bad with dh and discussing plot points. No dicking around on mn to wind down before bed. Nope, it's childcare, paid work, more childcare/housework, more paid work, then straight to bed for me. For 12-18 months. Sounds great!

Or, I could ask for external help from someone with good reviews and based on personal recommendations, who reckons we can make some tweaks to his routine (no crying) and have him sleeping through more or less regularly well within a month. You can see why we've made the decision to ask for help, can't you?

@Goostacean try pming me again? Maybe it'll appear this time!

'Perseverence from parents'

But we have no idea what we're doing! I'm sure if I was on no. 3 I'd have it nailed by now, but this is our first child and there is 10000000 different articles and methods out there, all of which are fought over by parents as being good/bad. I'm fricking GLAD sleep consultants exist because then there is someone who can come in and help you when you are a zombie and on the edge.

I mean I'm sure there are good and bad as in all professions, but to write the service off as completely ridiculous is a bit much don't you think?

Honestly, I'm pretty crunchy – I don't mind co-sleeping, I'm a pretty gentle parent otherwise, I breastfed, I quite often baby'wear' (hate that phrase), did BLW... but sleep, ah sleep. Sleep is my one line in the sand.

I've been lucky to have a good sleeper anyway. But I can categorically say that if my daughter was waking me up hourly or every 15 minutes, I would lose my everloving mild, become a terrible human being and mother and probably crash my car and kill us both (well, not right now as we aren't After nights where she wakes frequently because she has a cold or just has a bad night's sleep, she is a hot mess during the day: grumpy, emotional, prone to crying. When she sleeps well, she wakes up happy and is cheerful all day.

I'm not sure I'd use extinction CIO (unless really desperate) but something like CC or gradual retreat or something, I definitely would. I take my hat off to people who are getting up every 15 mins to an hour with toddlers, but that life is not for me and it's not for her. If it works for you, great, but it sounds bloody awful for us both to me and we would both be zombies and would have no energy for all the nice stuff we do during the day.

People get so worked up about sleep training, but in reality, if something like CC is going to work at all it generally works quickly and three/four nights of some crying is going to make sod-all difference to your child's development (as studies back up –and the first person who posts that Romanian orphans study gets a cookie made of horse manure). But it might make a massive difference to your mental health and you and your child's happiness overall. Look past the three/four nights to the hundreds of days and nights to come and do what is best for you both. Crying isn't some awful thing to be avoided at all costs.

And yes, if I had to go to bed at 8pm every night, I would crack up. Evenings are my time. We spend all day together, we do tons of activities, reading, outside play, classes (when they're on). But evenings are for me. I have to work some of them too, so DD going to bed at a reasonable time is a bit of a non-negotiable. She either goes to bed at 7 reliably and sleeps or she has to go into paid childcare several days a week instead so I can work during the day instead, and I'm pretty sure one of those is preferable to the other.

I mean I'm sure there are good and bad as in all professions, but to write the service off as completely ridiculous is a bit much don't you think? solely my own opinion, and ultimately I don’t begrudge whatever helps a parent get through the challenges. It’s just imo, the parents that need sleep consultants or potty training consultants tends to be because they give in quite quickly. Can’t handle a child crying even though they know they are dry, fed and not ill. Think their child isn’t ready for potty training because they are still have accidents after a week. But as I stressed just my opinion. I’m sure my next child will bite me in the ass on my opinions.
All I go on is every parent I Know who has a toddler that sleeps through the night, handled a few tears.

Sunshiness - I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but your response was actually a bit patronising. I carried out a proper assessment of the situation and researched the shit out of possible solutions (used to doing that to try to solve problems - I'm a lawyer).

Our sleep consultant's service absolutely was money well spent. Believe me, we had tried crying it out with our son before we hired her and it did not work. He cried for an hour solid for a couple of nights when we left him and we thought "this isn't working - it's not getting any less".

It turned out that what wasn't quite right was his daytime routine; the consultant tweaked that to reduce lengths of his daytime naps from what we were allowing him (from the Little Ones sleep guide I had been following). She also gave us some absolutely unbreakable rules (e.g. most of his naps must happen in his room, in his cot). I stuck to it religiously for 2 weeks, things gradually fell into place during that period and now he naps and sleeps at night reliably, as she promised he would. He is 7 and a half months old and her service has delivered exactly what I wanted. She said that we wouldn't have got to where we are now without intervention and I think the droves of people posting on MN about their 14 month old that STILL doesn't sleep at night prove that that was probably true.

I agree up to a point that sleep consultant's approaches and teachings may be similar to how, for example, our grandmothers helped their children with their children. For example, my great aunt was a farmer's wife in rural Northern Ireland. She had 9 kids and there is no way she would have had the time or energy to be up with them in the night every hour. I imagine her mother would have taught her what to do with her first and "mentored" her, as it were. But my mother lives 500 miles away and she's probably softer with her grandson than I am! So I needed professional guidance, I sought it, I paid for it, and it worked. And I'm a much more confident, self-sufficient and (arguably most important) well-rested parent as a result.

Also - the suggestion to go to bed when your baby goes to bed?

Fuck that.

Yes, I have a child, but I am entitled to an adult portion of my day, to do whatever I please with - in my case, spending time with my husband and watch "The Americans" while donning a selection of increasingly outlandish wigs so I can feel involved with the action. While my kid gets some much-needed shuteye upstairs.

I'm sorry Piglet I didn't mean to be patronising. As I said I'm sure you thought it through and made a choice based on your individual circumstances. Of course it's a free world and everyone can make whatever choice they want.

I just wanted to make OP and others aware that the choice is being made within a culture that spreads a lot of misinformation, to the financial benefit of self proclaimed sleep "experts". While the impact on the children is downplayed. Of course the children can't speak up themselves - if there is a cost to them, how would we ever know. I think it's important to be aware of this context because if I was given the choice of having more downtime in the evening with no impact on my child of course I'd choose this too. But if it is a choice between that downtime to watch TV but with a potential impact on my child's trust and sense of safety, or losing the downtime but my child can trust I'm always there for her day or night, personally I'd choose the latter. Of course you might choose differently, but please don't contribute to the biased culture by saying things like "a child that at 14 months STILL doesn't sleep" which ridicules mums who choose differently and gives the wrong impression of what biologically normal sleep behaviour is in small children. Surely at least everyone should be able to make an informed choice, not be swayed by others for financial gain or just to make others feel better about their own choices.

But sunshiness - you used language that implies that I’ve made choices that mean my son “can’t trust that I’ll be there for him day or night”. You’re suggesting that choice makes me a worse mother than those who choose different. You can’t really accuse me of using language that “ridicules“ others, while in the same breath using language that denigrates my mothering choices; that’s hypocrisy.

Ultimately we don't know the exact effect it has on the children involved, so I'm not suggesting it has negatively affected your son's trust. I'm saying there is a risk that it might affect it. I didn't suggest you're a worse mother than me, and would never pass judgement about other mums, as everyone is different and has their own back story. Maybe you're a little less risk averse than me or your circumstances are different, or maybe I'm over the top - I can accept I might be wrong.

What I do know, though, is that the context we're all making these decisions in is not neutral, and I want to make others aware of this as I was shocked when I first understood this. It's such a culture of making a huge deal about sleeping through, number of wakings, nap schedules, habits etc, and there is much less awareness of it being normal and healthy for small children to wake at night, no one outside of western societies would have their children sleep in their own rooms, brain and personality development is impacted a lot by how we relate to our children in their first three years of life, etc etc. It matters how we talk about these things and what this portrays as normal. Many people today have totally wrong expectations of baby sleep and are easily made to feel like something is wrong and needs fixing when it's actually normal. I don't think there should be any ridicule from either side, just proper information and support.

Many people today have totally wrong expectations of baby sleep I agree- I don’t think a 2yr old should wake multiple times a night.

The inability for people to see and accept how another parent might parent differently to them never fails to shock me on here.

(So I just wanted to protect other mums from going down the sleep training route because of being misled into thinking they HAVE to do this or there is zero risk of it negatively affecting their relationship with their child

If someone chooses in favour of sleep training despite knowing about the risks and any alternatives etc that's up to them of course. Your life is your life, it doesn't matter what I think about your parenting.

@Sunshiness

Out of curiosity, can I ask what would be your suggestion if you have no family members/partner to assist, but have to go to work during the day so need a decent sleep during the night?

The OP did ask whether she wbu to try cio. So she did invite people's views and experience