Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To hope that some people now understand that it's not somebody's fault they're poor?

336 replies

Moomin8 · 26/03/2020 23:08

All of a sudden loads of people have had to claim UC

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/24/britain-benefits-rishi-sunak-claimants-austerity?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Torsten Bell, head of the Resolution Foundation, says people on £50,000 salaries have been anxiously asking him about benefits rates. They’re in for a shock, he says.” Funny, that: before this crisis, those doing alright were adamant that benefit rates were too high. Now, they’re worried it’s the opposite.

OP posts:
Iggly · 29/03/2020 07:08

At the end of the day there are plenty of studies which show that due to structural problems, the life chances of certain groups are lower than others.

It’s all very well bleating about social responsibility when your path is pretty much heavily influenced by what happens between 0-5 years old.

Sent it all you like

Most people, 99.9% of people, want to do well. But they can’t. Our economy does not enable it.

I suggest people educate themselves and exercise a bit of curiosity.

If you think it’s just a case of work hard, why not do some reading into it.

Stuckandsadintheupsidedown · 29/03/2020 08:23

Quite.
I posted a few months ago about being upset that my money had run so low on tax credits that I was having to choose heating my house or eating.
I literally had 10 pounds to last 12 days.
Now I don't smoke or socialise or play the lottery. It's just that my electric heaters cost an absolute fortune and my private landlord wouldn't consider swapping them.
I got some fantastic support from many many mnetters. But some rather prominent posters bullied and taunted me on the thread, saying I was begging etc and reporting me to MN.
The reason I had ended up in such dire straits was because my exp had been very violent to me, and I was unable to work my usual overtime as I couldn't leave the house at night etc without being stalked and physically attacked.

Anyway!
3 months later and I'm currently in training to be a police officer, I've got money for the first time in months and months, a secure job and I'm already helping with covid efforts etc.

What I'm trying to say, is that I ended up hungry and cold as the result of domestic violence and 0 hour contracts (I couldn't take AL while I stayed at home to avoid stalking etc) I'm not stupid or a scrounge but good Lord it has taken every single ounce of strength to pull myself vaguely upright in a 12 month period.
I still have debts that I accrued over that 12 months to pay off, and my childcare fees are very high so I don't think I'll ever be reaching the heights of some posters.

Stuckandsadintheupsidedown · 29/03/2020 08:25

So basically I'm saying if it could happen to me, it could happen to anyone x

dontdisturbmenow · 29/03/2020 08:33

@Iggly, the start of your post made sense, then you go on about 99.9% wanting to do well but can't, which is nonsense.

There are so many factors that impact on the ability to do well, so will be due to parental education, some not. I don't agree though that everyone wants to do well. Many don't even consider the perspective of focusing on doing well, others are frightened of the implications and are happy to settle for a life of fewer responsibilities.

Sadly, the biggest factor does come down to home life and what constitutes normality. There is little doubt that Victoria, who is going to grow up in a very structure household, introduced to learning methods at the age of 2, set with one hour of homework every day from the age of 5, regularly spoken to about professional roles that will become the life out there is much more likely to end up in one of those job, rather than Bluebell, who will not see letters and numbers until she starts nursery, has little structure in her home life, who will be told that teachers are unreasonable for setting up a 15 MNS expected homework time daily, and who will get to 18 not having a clue what a radiologist, or a barrister do.

Figgygal · 29/03/2020 08:44

@Stuckandsadintheupsidedown
Just wanted to say well done that’s an excellent turn around

Stuckandsadintheupsidedown · 29/03/2020 08:50

Thanks figgygal 😊

MsTSwift · 29/03/2020 08:50

Overhearing girls in dds class when they about 9/10 on a school trip. The children of cleaners and waitresses literally saying certain things were not “for them” as they are not “posh”. Dd assumes the worlds her oyster that she will go to university / work abroad etc as that’s what we did / do. Her friends do not see this for themselves. One is just as bright as dd. It’s sad.

mathanxiety · 29/03/2020 08:59

@N0tJustY0ga
You are wrong to say the UK has 'more of' a safety net than the US, implying there is one in the US, only less developed than Britain's.
The US has NONE - bare-bones Dickensian-style health coverage doesn't count.

I would actually like to know what point you were trying to make about the safety net. You stated that you didn't have one for starters when you most certainly did.

...now I’m in the position because I didn’t give up. There’s no such thing as a dead end job & not being able to go anywhere I this country.
I disagree with your contention that it was simply a matter of 'not giving up' that enabled your success. Disagreeing with you, even strenuously, is not bullying btw. When a lot of people disagree with you it's not necessarily because of a mob mentality. It's often because you are very wrong.

I don't know you. I know nothing about your life.
But I do know many people who ascribe their success to their own efforts when in fact they have stood on the shoulders of many others in order to achieve what they have achieved - parents who were sober and solid individuals who helped them believe in themselves, for instance, or they have benefited from sheer dumb luck - right place, right time, or born in a prosperous metropolitan area as opposed to, say, Middlesbrough. Or good health, or good looks (don't scoff at this) or an accent that didn't mark them as a member of any unacceptable group, but it pleases their vanity to credit themselves and their own work ethic and mindset with their achievement.

Perhaps you benefited from good health, physical or mental.

Perhaps your child didn't suffer from chronic ill health, or a disability (please forgive my terminology if this word is offensive) or SEN, requiring time and energy on your part for therapies or appointments or advocacy for access to diagnosis or treatment.

Is that the excuse you are going to give yourself for not trying....because the US doesn’t have a safety net....then it’s impossible?
You jest surely?

You are not aware even now in these trying times that in the US your health insurance is tied to your job?

Meaning that if you get a job in the US that provides health insurance you hold on to it.

You do not take chances setting up your own business, because access to medical treatment for your family depends on your ability to provide health insurance, and buying it yourself is prohibitively expensive.

You might not even want to take the chance of changing jobs, because you could be denied whatever health insurance your new employer provides if you or your dependents have a pre-existing condition.

You might not change jobs if planning to have a baby because maternity coverage sometimes only kicks in after a year of paying premiums.

Some of this changed under President Obama with the ACA, which the 45 administration has devoted itself to destroying.

I won't console myself with the happy thought that at least I am not living in a developing country. The US has a long way to go before it will become a developing country; it is many thousands of miles behind the rest of the world when it comes to the hallmarks of a civilised society - paid maternity leave, paid family leave, paid sick leave, a living wage.

I am happy that things worked out for you.

But yes, in the US - which very misleadingly touts itself as the land of opportunity - fortune favours the white, the healthy, and those who won't ever need maternity leave.
Statically you have a WAY lower rate of succeeding if you can't tick all of those boxes, and people are not stupid.
Mordred Sat 28-Mar-20 18:59:15
'what is a Calvinist'"
You're poor? That's YOUR FAULT, that is.
The USA runs on this principle.

Yup. With bells on.
Hence the savage realities.

I am glad I have my Irish passport and glad too that my children are eligible for theirs when the time comes for them to make serious decisions about their lives.

mathanxiety · 29/03/2020 09:05

Stuckandsadintheupsidedown

Star

I have experienced DV too, and recovering is no walk in the park.

dontdisturbmenow · 29/03/2020 09:07

@Stuckandsadintheupsidedown, well done indeed.

I agree that there are some people who are born well and will never experience financial difficulties, and some people who will never know what life is without that worry, but there are also a number of people who will have experienced both.

I had a very nice childhood and never went without, my parents were comfortably off. I had no idea though that in the 90s and crash, my father had many sleepless night wondering how long we'll be able to continue to live in our house as the interest rate went up so drastically and he was struggling to afford the mortgage.

I am myself now very comfortable, financially stabled with some money to fall upon if I ever needed, but I went through two stages of life when I was wondering how I would make due. The first time in my 20s, when I lost my job out of the blue and was unable to find another one due to Visa issues (lived abroad and had no choice but to return to the UK despite having made my life abroad for 7 years). Then again when I became a single mum. I remember crying as I only had £10 to last for 2 weeks and being cropped by fear. We coped but it made me all the more determined to do everything to avoid being in this position again as much as possible.

cornflakeslady · 29/03/2020 09:13

I am completely for a welfare system that supports everybody however what I don't understand is why so many people have zero savings to lean back on, especially if they're self employed.

I also believe some people have got savings but they're stuffed at home and they're declaring poverty rather than the truth.

In our family we have both had a reduction in income of 20% we have large outgoings.
However we have savings to hit a rough patch before we would immediately having to claim benefits.
So long as after the furlough period things return to us having full pay we will be ok. If we're not then we will have to adapt to living on a much lower income or benefits and have started to make plans for zero income in the coming months.

But again if we do end up on benefits we will have to adapt not complain we are not getting enough out of the system.
I personally think what you receive should be based on a scale system to what you've paid into the system. That would be much fairer. So everyone gets a basic amount and thereafter if you've heavily paid in and claimed nothing before it is not fair you should receive the same as someone who hasn't and will face considerably less problems as a result of the bigger drop in income.

RestaurantoffBroadway · 29/03/2020 09:43

This is how it works. During our working years we pay put to support children and the elderly

The poster who said this on p1 is correct. The argument about "I paid my taxes so I should get x" is always based on a misunderstanding of the welfare state. It isn't some kind of big savings account.

You're not paying taxes for YOU. You pay now, for other people's children and pensions and to provide healthcare and disability payments for those who need them. Then when you need something, others pay for you.

You might never need anything. So what? You've helped everyone get a leg up. So there are a minority who don't want to work hard. Meh.

ThrowingGoodAfterBad · 29/03/2020 09:45

Yoga thanks for the pep talk I hadn’t asked for, does sound rather American. As you point out all of the positivity in the world hasn’t changed the facts for most Americans who aren’t from their regal families. Nor will it here.

On the personal note you’ve started I’m glad that your personal cost/benefit analysis has come up positive enough in the past that you find it worth trying again. What you should try and grasp is that for some of us it does not, time and time again. I’m a bit older, I have dc to worry about, there are other things and other ways and the costs are not worth some mirage of benefits that no longer exist.

And that’s the same for many others. Immediate costs are escalating, and when the practical benefits are reduced - or taken away entirely - and increasingly ringfenced by richer and more powerful groups putting ‘keep out’ signs all over them, they effectively cease to exist.

People at the lower levels are not as some people like to think, a separate species: they have the same human capability to make those cost / benefit analyses, and increasingly they come up negative.

Cyclical history shows, as I have been trying to tell people for years, that one way or another when that happens people will peel off and find other ways. Those ways may not be ‘socially responsible’ in the eyes of more powerful groups; I.e. will not benefit and may be deleterious. It’s no good then bleating about it when it happens: lower groups are expressing the ingenuity and resource higher groups claim they don’t have.

Brexit showed the sure and certain path for a society which no longer has any real benefits for sufficient of its people: it will be pulled down, rather than people altruistically turn themselves into slaves. How many more warnings does it take? How many more warnings is there time for?

RestaurantoffBroadway · 29/03/2020 09:45

And well done @Stuckandsadintheupsidedown xx Looks like it's time for a name change as you've definitely escaped the upside down!

ThrowingGoodAfterBad · 29/03/2020 09:49

I.e will not benefit those higher groups holding the wealth I meant, to be clear. They should not expect, let alone feel entitled to, sympathy and selflessness they have failed to display.

sixthtimelucky · 29/03/2020 09:51

Again, a lot of inverted snobbery on here.

People who don't live in poor areas/social housing telling those who come from that background that there's no way some people ARE just lacking in ambition and happy to stagnate. That simply cannot be true!

These people are of course the minority, and privilege includes being able bodied and healthy as well as educated and well fed etc etc. There are loads of obstacles people face that make life very unfair and hard for sure. And I hope that after this there will be more compassion and understanding for 'people on benefits' and less ignorance and assumption.

leckford · 29/03/2020 09:55

Unless you have a large trust fund parents who pay for you, you need as a female to avoid

Having children without a reliable other committed to help you
Having lots of children
Having children with multiple partners
Getting involved with drugs, anyone involved with drugs
Getting involved with people who won’t work

Then you can spend time with the one or two children you have to help educate them and encourage them

transformandriseup · 29/03/2020 10:00

Overhearing girls in dds class when they about 9/10 on a school trip. The children of cleaners and waitresses literally saying certain things were not “for them” as they are not “posh”. Dd assumes the worlds her oyster that she will go to university / work abroad etc as that’s what we did / do. Her friends do not see this for themselves. One is just as bright as dd. It’s sad.

This is the point I was making, it's not always down to laziness, it's background. I know some friends from school who have never lived outside of their home town because their entire family live there and it never occurred to them that they could.

MsTSwift · 29/03/2020 10:03

The current situation makes me once again relieved we stopped at 2 kids

ThrowingGoodAfterBad · 29/03/2020 10:31

Thank you @mathanxiety for having the patience and time to spell things out with great articulacy.

Seriously cornflakes you don’t know why others don’t have savings? Huge debt is required by an education system that is increasingly necessary. Housing is a known problem, wages are decreasing and skills required for jobs are increasing. Interest rates are low, savings actively depreciate over time in value. Access to higher interest rates and returns are controlled and limited to those who have fortunes to spend on them. How many have the chances to build real savings and assets? The risks of self employment are not risks that I would take, but risk and entrepreneurship is held up as a noble good and something to aim for in Britain (by those for whom the risks are mitigated by huge wealth), so in a time when there’s little food alternatives it’s not surprising.

Social mobility is reducing, geographical mobility is reducing. It’s not hard to see why young kids have poverty of aspirations - they have poverty of everything. The brief recognition of how little other people have that appeared after Brexit didn’t last long did it. It never does.

ThrowingGoodAfterBad · 29/03/2020 10:32

Little good alternatives! Autocorrects, who invented ‘em?

Stuckandsadintheupsidedown · 29/03/2020 10:50

Thanks all 😊 I have credit womens aid and my local police force though. I can see how easy it would be to fall through the gap without that support.
In my previous job I was somewhat comfy, went on holidays, always spoilt my d's and other people on their birthdays etc.
I didn't save however, I took my 0 hour contract job for granted as I was always given 40 a week and had lived that way for 5 years, I didn't save, I didn't support a charity outside of a couple quid here and there, I didn't volunteer.
Now I'm back in full time work and secure I am going to clear debt, save hard and give back. without the experience i think id still be in lalaland with no back up. Never again!!!

x2boys · 29/03/2020 11:39

Isn't that the truth @sixthtimelucky i.live in a council house in what could be described as a rough area ,my neighbour is bone idle lazy.bastard he's in and out of work a couple of Xma,s ago he got a temporary job at my dh,s place of work ( ware house )and in the few weeks he worked there he had a reputation for doing as l little as possible ,the warehouse dh works for,tend to.keep the hard workers on ,he was,nt kept on ,neither him and his girlfriend work very much yet they had a 2nd child a few months ago ,I know a lot about his situation because he's always shout ing about it when he's pissed, of course there are people like him they might not be in the majority but they do exist ,poster ,s might not see people like my neighbour ,in their little middle class bubble ,but just because they personally don't know anyone like that doesn't mean they don't exist .

JohnMcCainsDeathStare · 29/03/2020 11:52

That's the thing, poverty is such a complex factor in that there is poverty of experience and aspiration as well as money.
I remember going to University and one of the questions I got was 'Does your Mum mind?' Thing is, as I explained that my parents would rather have a happy daughter 100s miles away rather than a rotting corpse witin the house, was that it never occured to them that they too could leave their home town.
There is the aspects of 'better the devil you know' and family and friends but there is also the flipside. There are some people would would rather be the king of a dunghill than a free agent with keys to the Unverse. And worse of all would seek to keep their families and friends down so as to keep control.
I only hope that some people have gained some use of empathy here - speaking as someone who has had the misfortune of being surrounded by sensitive types but no empathy in sight!

lmcneil003 · 29/03/2020 11:54

X2boys - what a scummy piece of work your neighbour sounds. No wonder people are hostile to those on benefits and council people. He gives you a bad name.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread