To hope that some people now understand that it's not somebody's fault they're poor?

[Moomin8]

All of a sudden loads of people have had to claim UC

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/24/britain-benefits-rishi-sunak-claimants-austerity?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Torsten Bell, head of the Resolution Foundation, says people on £50,000 salaries have been anxiously asking him about benefits rates. They’re in for a shock, he says.” Funny, that: before this crisis, those doing alright were adamant that benefit rates were too high. Now, they’re worried it’s the opposite.

There's a lot of space between it's all random blind luck and it's your fault. There is an institutional component but there's a lot of personal determination in there as well.

moomin

Yanbu

Many posters on mumsnet have tried saying that claiming benefits is hard and it isn’t enough money to live on.

Now more of us are going to see exactly what that means

So OP, according to you everyone else's life experiences that opinions are based on are invalid?

Honestly please answer my question about why you're on a discussion forum. You must know this isn't a "everyone tell me I'm right and everything else is propaganda" forum.

A good outcome from all this (IMO) would be for us to bring back more manufacturing within the UK and raise minimum wage to at least £12ph. I do think a contribution based system of unemployment and sickness benefit could mean the self employed are automatically included, especially with Rishi’s hint about reviewing things yesterday. I know other European countries have such systems that appear to work well. Of course people with disabilities would be entitled to claim too.

I’ve been on benefits and know how hard it is to survive on them. Especially as I lived in a tiny 1 bed flat and still had to make up £6 pw rent out of my JSA, plus pay a fiver every 2 weeks to get to the job centre. Having to decide between buying milk for tea or bread for toast but not having enough money for both is a horrible situation to be in (milk won!)

I’m really hoping things will actually get better for everyone when this is over.

My jsa was about £54 pw at the time, so £8.50 off that for rent and travel was quite a cut.

Jesus Helena calm down.

"Some people don't have the opportunities in life or the skills to afford them a shot at a job which pays a lot."

And some people do have the opportunities, but chose not to take them.

Some just make really bad decisions, and spend money or scratchies, cider and ciggies.

Wow reading this thread really upsets me.

I am someone who earns above the living wage. The job I am in at the moment is so simple and easy. I get paid more than nurses, carers, retail workers etc... From my work life I can tell you the hardest jobs I have ever done were low paid. Don't assume just because you are earning a lot of money you must automatically be working very hard. Take the NHS as an example we have some directors managers in finance who easily earn £100k plus that is more than A and E doctors. Do they work harder than them? Course not.

Coming to the benefits debate, a lot of people are unfortunately swayed by the minority of cases and shows like Benefits Street. Yes there may be some who choose not to work. But for every so called "scrounger" there is the minority who is trying their best to find work and others who can't due to health conditions.

This crisis people are seeing that they can be laid off or loss of income (furloughed) any second. However, yet we have people who look down on people on welfare. Just remember, welfare needs a reform look at cases like homelessness, the evil Bedroom tax and 5 week UC wait...

Ive no idea what helena said

But ‘calm down’ has got to be the worst comment in the English language for having exactly the opposite effect

Indeed I firmly believe that some people say it precisely because it has the opposite effect

I swear a lot...doesnt make me angry

Using caps lock doesn’t mean i need to calm down

And i can very calmly call someone an utter cunt as well

In fact in my circle of friends me being calm Is a danger sign

@RufustheLanglovingreindeer You sound like my OH

for every so called "scrounger" there is the minority who is trying their best to find work

I agree. The government' s own stats show benefit fraud is a tiny percentage of the benefits bill. Not to mention most benefits go to those IN work but on crap salaries.

Interesting thread - I don't think the two situations are comparable. Anyone out of a job due to the virus deserves to be supported. I am not impacted by it but I am more than happy for my taxes to go up to pay for this support. These people do make an effort to do their best and provide for their families and contribute to society and deserve everything they get . I don't think the same can be said for everyone on benefits in a business as usual scenario though and agree with PP that people do make choices in life and many don't take the opportunities available to them

tadda

I’m hoping thats a good thing

People who usually take home significantly more than £2500/month should have savings!! Everyone should have savings, but if you don't earn a lot it's more understandable why not. I still think the Gov is doing the right things, but to those saying that these higher earners will have a nasty shock - perhaps it might teach them to stop living beyond their means!

"Really though nobody can deny that this government have created a selfish society who think others are irrelevant to them. And now we need everyone to take a position of collective responsibility and they just won't do it."

Got nothing to do with "this Government". I do hate it when people blame everything on whatever Government happens to be in. The vast majority of people dont think "others are irrelevant to them". Most people go about their business politely.

@RufustheLanglovingreindeer It is, worry not
In general, where I live being told to 'calm down' would be classed as incitement to riot....

In general, where I live being told to 'calm down' would be classed as incitement to riot....

Abso-fucking-lutely

(Disclaimer...swearing does not mean I’m angry)

People who usually take home significantly more than £2500/month should have savings!! Everyone should have savings, but if you don't earn a lot it's more understandable why not. I still think the Gov is doing the right things, but to those saying that these higher earners will have a nasty shock - perhaps it might teach them to stop living beyond their means!
applecrumbler
I totally agree with this, its horrifying that those on such high salaries dont have savings and probably debt in addition.
Theres no "pull" to save anymore when people can just whack stuff on a CC.
Once debt is paid off though you are left with ... zero .
I think many confuse access to credit with wealth.

@Pentium85 you.

@gingersausage

Where exactly? What exactly have I said?

What does boil my piss in this is the 'othering' of the poor, like being poor is somehow a protected class - an imutable identifying feature like being tall, or black. It is a schizoid category in that the poor are both loathed but taken for granted in terms of doing the dirty jobs. For instance, it seems its cool to not give a shit if someone is an awesome guitar player, a great cook and fun to be with - but their poor and that's more important than what they have to offer or how they treat others around them.

A similar argument is for unemployed people - they are The Unemployed so must be so for a Reason. All they have to do is 'get a job'. Again no-one gives a shit if they can speak another language, are a great writer, a good problem solver and can diffuse difficult situations - they are Unemployed and that's the most important thing about them.
This ignores the fact that anyone can become unemployed and it is so much easier to become unemployed and poor rather than cease being unemployed and poor. I've dropped conversation bombs on people busy shit-talking benefit claiments by saying 'you mean like me?' because yes I have been someone doing highly skilled technical work and claiming benefits AT THE SAME TIME.

I suppose some good might come from this in that it is just possible that some people might actually get their heads out of their asses and do their own research from more than one source. (Not the Sun).

@JohnMcCainesDeathStare Great post!

('Boil my piss' has to be added to the ever expanding MN dictionary of being 'not amused' ) !

Thanks for this thread, it helps to know I’m not the only person who can see the problems in hierarchical elitist snobby Britain.

I’ve noticed reading through that those of us agreeing with the op are tending to talk about the general picture - the whole system and how it forces and requires most people to work in conditions the born-rich crowd sneer at as ‘low pay’. Those disagreeing tend to make points along the lines of ‘but but but I know this one person who is living on benefits, therefore everything you all say about the whole system affecting million must be wrong.

The points about the system can be backed by observation and figures and stats everywhere, not to mention a bit of knowledge about the backgrounds of the people concerned.

There is also far too much emphasis from those disagreeing on the idea of ‘choice’. How much choice, in a snobby elitist country, do you think we have? Do you not know the facts that most professions are dominated by middle class families, that we are led by those predominantly born to our-and-out aristocratic levels of wealth??

I’ve been working in schools of late. I e had to - the only work left open to me as an older woman with kids. Do you know the phrase I keep hearing repeated of late, both to me if I dare mention the amount of work I’m expected to do on a fraction of teachers’ wages, and about the kids in poorer deprived areas themselves? “Managing expectations”. I’m being told that I have to manage expectations of poorer groups, so that they don’t get ‘ideas above their station’, in the heart of the British system, the one part that’s supposed to help kids do better. It’s usually said by people of middle class descent who’ve had access to support since always. If that’s the approach at the beginning of these kids’ journeys, how much ‘choice’ do you think they’ll ever have??

Ffs this is a country that’s had rich and poor groups for generations, centuries. The origins of those wealthy aristocratic families go back to the Norman Conquest. Most people follow their parents’ jobs, most parents help their kids if they follow. But you think those disadvantages over centuries have ‘choices’? Fucks sake.