To expect Mumsnet NOT TO ALLOW OPENLY RACIST THREADS TO STAND UNDELETED?

[Hurlyburly]

Hmm? Well AM I?

If someone tells me not to click on the FUCKING thread in question, I think I will explode. Racism should have no place on Mumsnet.

I have known plenty of English white people who have moved to another town/city because they were taken over and felt like the minority by coloured/foriegn people. Is this ok Hurly? Or would that be only unacceptable if it were coloured people being taken over and made to feel like the minority?

When me and dp went over to the Isle of Wight the man who we were buying the car off of said he used to live in London but moved because it has turned into spot the white man. He said the city is a dangerous place for a white man to live nowadays. That to me is awful.

Why is it that rasism only applys if it is coloured/foriegn people who are being treated badly?

Thank God your friend from London left. One less ignoramous for me to have to deal with.

And the acceptable vernacular is black not coloured.

Are you saying the white man is being treated badly because he doesn't like living among non-whites?

I feel for him, I really do, and for the poor people on the Isle of Wight who are now graced with his presence.

it isn't necessarily about winning people over with debate.
but to go to the extreme of wanting to entirely supress debate and the opposite view - surely you can see that its massively counterproductive?
e.g. if I wanted to express an opinion like (for the sake of argument) that the majority of gun crime is currently committed by young black men, and to ask why this was the case?
then if I attempted to express this opinion, and I was called a racist (or even a vile Nazi or whatever) and that I wasn't permitted to express this in public.
then how would that have progressed matters?
the issue of "victimhood" for example, is a strong one in many people's minds. if this has stemmed from personal experience then dismissing personal experience is really the road to nowhere.
of course you maynot care about other people's opinions and experiences if they don't equate with your own.
but suppressing them will only serve to breed further resentment and feelings of powerlessness.

sorry I also wanted to say that if you want to preach tolerance then you must also practice it.
imo.
and that means sometimes permitting people to express their opinions notwithstanding you might find them sepcious and/or offensive.
obviously it is reasonable to draw the line at extremist opinions, expressions of hatred or stirring up violence.

Icingonthecake...that guy talks the same crap that my sister's south african inlaws (who haven't quite got their heads round the end of apartheid) would say

I wholeheartedly agree with harpsi's posts on this thread.

I would also like to add that I don't think some of you realize quite how vitriolic you sound. It certainly doesn't seem that you like the 'white man' very much, and that you hold us largely in contempt.

If you were wishing to convert (your notion) of a racist, I doubt whether you will have won over any hearts and minds on this thread.

And may I ask a question? Do you think that it is only white people who are guilty of racism?

Well, I guess that's it then

No, not at all, it's not just white people.

Racism and xenophobia most definately exist in all races, cultures, etc...!

The term foreigner always makes me cringe....because, you see there are different levels of foreignerhood...apparently....people around here often talk about them foreigners...and when they do that to me, I tend to say, well, I am a foreigner...what with being german...but I am different, because my hubbie is brittish and anyway we (my family now)don't "scrounge" of the system (the very people who are saying that are actually int eh category of the scrounger of the system themselfs...have never held a Job down or anything....only know life on benefits....and before anyone jumps on me...I do believe there is a need for a benefit system, and I genuinely think that it's often the very people who this was invented for are usually left high and dry because others are more benefit pros and therefore know how to get things out of the system...so, I am, by no means saying that someone living on benefits is a scrounger....just that some are....)!
I mena, these people are generally not greatly educated (not that I am brilliantly educated or anything) and a lot is just ignorance , however, there is also a lot of hate...

I was born in Bielefeld, 3andnomore.

Well there's a treble negative for you!
Threads aren't racist - people are.
I'm sure MN would delete racist people.

3 - as an english person in germany, I also fall into this delicately sometimes-a-foreigner status as well.

just to complicate things, my name is german because my family came originally from Baden-Wurtemburg.

never been in Bielefeld, but do know where that is...well, roughly anwyay....

nighty it's weird sometimes isn't it....think is, these people can sometimes also still be very friendly with people of whatever race, dispite so obviously dispising that race...if that makes sense...i.e. if they actually get to know a person they will quite happily become friends, but still hold the believes against their race in general...I just don't get it!

When you're talking about people who move out because too many "foreigners" come into the area I think it's more to do with aspiration than race. They don't want to be among people who they see as beneath them in rank. That's one of the reasons why our society is so divided.

I guess I'm a sort of foreigner too (white Australian - not British yet, but if you go back a couple of generations then all my ancestors were from the UK anyway). But then the Aussie and UK cultures are pretty similar so integration is not that much of an issue.

The whole ethnic background thing seems to be a pre-occupation in Britain that I find a bit odd. Every bit of paperwork I have had to fill out includes a check box for ethnic group. I can understand this for my surgery (as MB says different conditions are prevelent in different races - my DH is of Chinese descent and is a carrier of thalassaemia which is relatively common in Asian races) - but why does my library care?

My category was easy enough (Other White), DH was a little harder (Chinese but only for ethnic orgin, not for culture - his culture is same as me - Australian) but DS... the midwife and I had to think about the combinations for a while before checking the 'Other mixed' box...

The ch**ky and the paddy threads were about two very different things. One is a term of abuse - and people who had used it unwittingly were gracious enough to say, oh, I had no idea, I won't do that again.

And one was about whether the colloquial term for a tantrum was racist. There was no evidence that the derivation of the word in that context had anything to do with the other uses of the word as a description of a rice field or a term of abuse. Just as 'fit' meaning seizure and 'fit' meaning position are the same word doing different things.

So after reasoned and largely intelligent debate, I thought we'd reached intelligent conclusions based on the meaning of the words.

Hurly, I really had your back on the aforementioned thread- good contributions, imvho.

And despite having caused a veritable war in my house between me and DH (who kinda went off on one upon reading some of the ignorant crap of which you speak), I think that having threads like this are a good thing. If you read through, you can see that a few people are learning something worthwhile through the debate.

Reading back through this post, I realise how wishy-washy I'm sounding but, will have to do- it's bloody late. Sorry. Short answer: racism- no (thread title was unacceptable); debate- yes, even if some repellant views come to the fore.

Well I've calmed down now but I have to say that entire thread was a total shocker.

What surprised me was not the views expressed - although I am regularly surprised by how widely these sort of views are held or condoned - so much as the lack of shame in expressing them.

It felt to me as it might to a discarded wife reading about someone posting that they were serial adulterers.

I still don't believe that it is possible to argue people like that around.

But ultimately, I do agree that simply banning repulsive discussions is not the way forward.

Thanks for all the intelligent and lucid contributions on this thread. Too many to mention but Loveangel, Martianbishop, Lionheart and Ladymuck all seemed to talk sense consistently.

Have a look at the takeaway thread if you get a chance, HB, and the one started about it by RedTartanLass,

because some people did change their minds.

Glad you are calmer and that you had a place to express your anger.

Hurlyburly, i completely agree with you - totally, there are certain thread titles tht insense me and i dont even have to open them. These threads seem to make it ok for overt racism, in the form of, and this really makes me "i'm not being racist bit"............... Yes there are certain things that should not be discussed on MNET and that is one of them for several reasonas. The first being, it becomes a forum for racists to have thier little digs, and secondly, people can mis read comments and be seriously hurt and upset by such comments. As a society we need to learn acceptance, not tolerance because that reminds me of just grudging acceptance and allowing such racism on this site is flying in the face of that.

'Thank God your friend from London left. One less ignoramous for me to have to deal with.'

Erm in what part of my post did i say this man was my friend?He was just a man we bought a car off of and he didn't leave London because he hated blacks, he was forced out because the parts he lived in became no go areas for white people i.e; you get beaten up, attacked etc if your seen in these parts with a white face.

Yes he could have moved to another part of London but he said he moved to the Isle of Wight to get away from the madness and the violence. I know there are plenty of 'no go areas' for blacks in London too but this was just my example of someone who was treated like the minority and the point was that it's not only blacks that get treated this way but white do too but people seem to forget this.

If your not going to read my post properly Loveangel then don't bother to respond.

Icingonthecake, I have tried, really tried to take on board posts on this thread that express similar sentiments to yours. Unfortunately, I have failed in my bid to be tolerant. My failing, perhaps? I just find the ignorance, and as HB pointed out, the lack of self awareness, let aloneshame depressing.

The guy you mentioned may not have been your friend, but you clearly bought into his ridiculous Daily Mail 'We aren't safe in our own country!' bullshit. (You said: 'He said the city is a dangerous place for a white man to live nowadays. That to me is awful. ')

I have lived in London all my life, from Camden to Camberwell, Harlesden to Hackney, and I think that that is the most ridiculous, stupid, hateful thing to say. I am not denying that racial tension exists in certain areas of London (obviously it does) but this 'Its spot the white man / we ain't safe among all these coloureds / foreigners!' attitude is despicable. Listen to it! Read it back in black and white. Rewind 60 years and replace the word 'coloured' with 'Jew'. Can you not see????

I would also like to point out, for maybe the 3rd or 4th time on this thread, that being black is NOT the same thing as being foreign (not that that should excuse prejudice against people from other countries, ie. genuine 'foreigners'). My DH was born in London. He was raised in London. He has a British passport. He supports the England football team. He pays a hell of a lot in taxes. hell, he even represents his country abroad in his work for the British Council. Our son will be similar. They are both black and have every right to live in London. If the likes of the bloke you mentioned don't like it, it really is there problem - hence why I am glad he left.

People have genuine fears and concerns about immigration, employment, housing. But stirring up hatred towards other groups of people won't solve those problems.

Excuse terrible types and inexcusable use of 'there' when I meant 'their'. I thank you.