To expect Mumsnet NOT TO ALLOW OPENLY RACIST THREADS TO STAND UNDELETED?

[Hurlyburly]

Hmm? Well AM I?

If someone tells me not to click on the FUCKING thread in question, I think I will explode. Racism should have no place on Mumsnet.

becuase Nazi's were a specific organised group many years ago....they were called Nazi's because they were followers of the Nationalsozialistischen Partei....that is why....obviously I realise ther are now Neo Nazi groups...and of course it's o.k., imo, to use the term Nazi on them...

HurlyBurley
a long way back on this thread you drew a comparison with parents of a special needs child. FWIW I HAVE had converstaion about SN children amongst mainstream kids and how that affects the MS kids and the SN kids. I also had a 'friend' phone my hubby to give him info about my severely ASD son soo that they could use examples to try and BLOCK an application for assisted housing near them .

My view is that however painful these converstaions can be they are nearly always hugely benficial and are rarely initiated because of hatred but tend to be born out of the fear of the unknown and the unfamiliar. People are apprehensive of meeting my son because they have no frame of reference for his behaviuour - not because they have a hatred of people with autism. And once they meet him they usually love him .
The thread in question made me wince and I have not read it because I am feeling a bit battered just now.
But discussion is the cure to these ills. It roots out the bigots, it encourages people to think and it causes their blinkered views to be challenged. I think many people grow and learn. Of course some don't - but I would rather explore and discuss than stiffle discussion or else ignorance is passed around undercover like a sickness.
And for my poor boy - too many strangers avoid us because they are afriad of saying 'the wrong thing'. When you make people guilty of wrong thinking and then remove the means by which they may be enlightened then you perpetuaute the problem.

Blimey - that was long winded. Sorry

LOL How does BF-ing get dragged into every conversation on MN? Its like that '6 degrees of Kevin Bacon' game. Start a thread on nuclear fecking war and it will eventually get round to cracked nipples and let-down reflexes.

for you Pagwatch. That was dreadful. Thank you for posting.

Generally I am a good liberal and I do believe in freedom of speech. But also I have a right not to feel sick whenever I click on active convos. Or worse still, even click into that horrible thread.

I'm sure this point has already been made, but, people have the right to say what they want about their experiences, thoughts and perceptions as long as it is not inciting violence.
Other people then have the right to confront them tell them they are wrong/misguided/ignorant etc and explain to them why this is the case (as long as they don't incite violence either!).
In some cases, a debate is going to affect peoples opinions and views and beliefs. Particularly if an opinion is based in ignorance or in limited experience.

If posts use offensive words then fine, report them ( argument for ability to selectively censor posts...so the post can remain withthe offensive word removed/replaced?).

I hadn't realised how offensive/upsetting it was for some people when the N word is used out of context, until a previous MN debate enlightened me.

lol LA...I was just saying that usually teh term Nazi is reserved for Breastfeeders on MN...whihc is true, you must admit...

OK, I would hope, tht if I came accross a post that I considered racist on MN, I would make my feelings known and report the post for deletion.

In other words if someone wrote ''Racial group of your choice', I hate them, they are subhuman and we should deport them all.

Nice and easy. Not only racist, but incitement to racial hatered is illegal in the UK.

But there are a range of comments which stretch from ignorance, through xenophobia through to full blown racism, and where you draw the line, varies , I think, from case to case.

So the comment made earlier,

'"All I see is a poor health system, poor schooling, poor policing, poor housing and lots of people who don't speak english in the town centre during the day." ' Could be seen a racism if it was describing a group of Somali people, but possibly only Xenophobia if they were talking about Bangor in North Wales, and the people involved were welsh (I'm welsh BTW)

If the implication of the first possibility is the, 'And they should not be here' that is probably racism.

If it was 'And they should all be talking English' I'd think that person an arrogant arse, but possibly not racist.

The context does matter.

In school I'm a biology teacher. I have to teach that sickle cell disease is more common in black people than white....but this doesn't make me a racist, it makes me a biologist. In the cause of balence, I should point out that cystic fibrosis is more common in whites.

I hope I wouldn't pass a racist comment by.

I also hope that I learn from reading. Up iuntil a recent thread I seriosly never cosidered calling a chinese meal a chinkie offensive. Since chinese people posted on MN as said they did, I've re thought things.

Out attitudes chance and move on, it isn't static. I'd never crack a jewish joke, but I've heard jews do.

It isn't a balck and white issue (no pun intended)

I think too often on MN the term racist is used when actually a post is more xenophobic.

Can I just add that statistically, there's almost as many people leaving this country each year as there are coming in.

Ah HB - still a better liberal than me I tend to swear at the screen and vent at poor DH when he gets home. Perhaps a quick vom is more effective ?
Vomit away - a gals got to do what works

Can someone explain the distinction between xenophobia and racism because I've always assumed they were pretty much the same thing.

lol@3andnomore

Look, this thread has actually changed my mind and brought me round to thinking that the thread probably shouldn't be deleted. However, I still defend HB. Its upsetting to hear that so many people have such dodgy views and to be honest, I'd rather not hear them, but hey...let the Alf Garnetts rant away...

Xenophobia is a distrust or dislike of foreigners in general.

Racism is the belief that your race is superior to another.

I think they are arguing that one can be xenophobic without being racist but not racist without being xenophobic.

But I think more like you do, fluffy. Racism is a spectrum, I suppose. It's just that xenophobia is a milder form of it.

I've been a member of Mumsnet for 7 years (not always as this name).

One of the things that I have loved about the place is that I have read and debated topics with people who have a totally different view on life to myself (as a Conservative voter on Mumsnet I suspect that I am in one of the smallest minorities in existance on here!). I have had many of my pre-judgements (aka prejudices) on a range of topics (breastfeeding, education, housing policy, health policy, racism, sexism etc)challenged, emerging either changed or confirmed.

Reasoned debate may not make an impact on every MNer, but it does to some. There are whole sections of society that I don't have conversations with, because they don't cross my path every day, but usually they are present on here. I can hear first hand what it was like to be married to someone who died on 9/11, or whose husband is dying or waiting for a heart transplant, or whose rural lives has been changed through foot and mouth disease. Equally I can hear what life is like from a refugee, or someone in a multicultural family.

Yes, MN should delete offensive posts where reported, but deleting whole threads just kills debate and stops the chance of people realising that their views are inappropriate and learning about the perspectives of others. The fact is that quite often most adults aren't challenged on some of their views. And if they have inherited their vieews from their families they may genuinely not even realise that they hold them. So I would see the site as a force for change rather than a place where only people who agree with me can be (it would just be a rather small site).

Hurly - you do NOT "have a right not to feel sick whenever I click onto active convos". Your feelings are entirely your responsibility and no one elses.

[sigh] You also learn that MB always puts things more succinctly. She really should be a politician except that she is probably too nice.

I think xenophobia often stems more from ignorance. People are often frightened of things they have little knowledge about.

Sadly, but IMO true, seeing your race as superior to others is a viewpoint often held by intelligent, well educated people.

Quality posts from Ladymuck and Martianbishop.

So you think I should argue my corner? Well maybe I should.

And obviously, hurly, you suffer from neither affliction?

I'm glad its worked for you@ladymuck

Unfortunately, my experience of these sort of threads is that they descend into lots of people swapping anecdotes that amount to not much more than 'they're taking our jobs and our women!' (or perhaps in modern times it is 'our husbands', judging by the recent influx of gorgeous 6 foot Eastern European girls?). In short - it's very hard to reason with someone who holds unreasonable views.

By the way, you're not seriously voting for Cameron, are you? :-)

Of course you should argue your point. That's the beauty of the beast.

No Bouncing, there are some things that really should not be said.

You all work from the kind of nice-minded standpoint that the offence being caused is accidental and the result of inadequate education or exposure.

Racism is frequently more malign than that.

What if your point is 'You are offending me?'

I haven't seen a single person acknowledge that they have been offensive, whether deliberately or not. Ladymuck's vision of MN doesn't seem to ring true here, I'm afraid.

I agree with stillsleeping's post of 13.23. The OP we're talking about wasn't well put but I believe the issue the OP was concerned about wasn't racist, it was culturalist. We so, so often get the 2 confused but they're very different. The first appertains to one's genetic background that may be a strong influencer of one's appearance. The second relates to one's CHOICES of lifestyle. I believe that all races are equal BUT not all cultures are equal.

Miljee, please clarify your last sentence before you get jumped on.