Looking after your own children IS work

[Bumpitybumper]

Oxford Dictionary definition of "work":
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result

AIBU to suggest that the people that suggest that looking after one's own children isn't work are wrong and in some cases are actively trying to devalue and undermine the people (usually women) that do the majority of childcare?

Would be really interested to understand how anyone can read this definition and argue that looking after children isn't work.

Well sure but saying it is of no value to society, economy etc is also elevating paid work over unpaid.

Who has said that? Thanks

Sorry for the random 'thanks'. Fat fingers!

'Well there economic value and then there’s human / societal value and sometimes these may overlap, but often not.
My issue is that what is repeatedly talked about on here is the economic value, why are we perpetuating this? It's as though people feel the need to justify something which doesn't need justifying'

Because quite a few posters have framed the massive amount of unpaid labour by women as non effort, not labour, of no value to society, or the economy.

This work should be recognised as effort if attitudes are to change. But women on here saying, it's selfish, valueless etc etc This is not helpful.

'And on that note, it isn't the 1950s anymore men and women are both capable of parenting and if we continue to talk about women's work, well... it doesn't need saying really does it?'

If it's framed as a people thing, then the fact that most of it is done by women as default becomes impossible to talk about. Childcare in particular is not well paid and is massively a sector with women employed. Other care work too. If we ignore historical attitudes that are still clearly embedded, judging by this thread, and stats around who does what, then how can we talk about how to change things? If you want to change things for women, then saying X is a 'people problem' washes away a lot of the background and current attitudes that perpetuate those issues.

This picture is changing (male / female roles). Over the last few years it's much more shared across partnerships.

Historically, yes, there was a clear divide and yes, there are still situations where that divide remains but it's massively different from how it used to be. We need to change the way that we speak about this, so that the norm becomes (and we are already on the way), that roles in parenting no longer depend upon the shape of your genitals.

As far as those posters that you refer to, I haven't seen that. I've seen people pointing out (in response to the list of tasks that SAHM carry out) that WOHM also does these. I tell a lie, there was one poster who talked about watching grays anatomy or something, but this was part of a very bizarre exchange from both sides of the argument (something to do with Ferrari's and CEOs)

Also, just to say thank you for the debate. I've got symptoms of covid19 so am in isolation and a lot of pain and it's nice to have something to distract myself with!

Oh well I won't ask you to go back and read the whole thread but yes there have been posters who have asserted (separately) that

Childcare & domestic work is of zero value to society, lazy & selfish, a privilege, and something that should come from love and never be seen as effort

That being at home is way easier than paid work full stop (ignoring different types of family, how many kids, disabilities, income, what the job is etc and personalities of the people etc

Bizarre statements about how men going out to work are always working super hard (again depends on sector and what your rewards are based on), the fact that so many posters cite men working hard kind of backs up the whole thing. As many women are working hard AND statistically bearing the brunt of the domestic work at home.

Victorian ideals placed home as the woman's sphere and outside home as men's. I think a lot of this historically fairly recent thinking is still pretty embedded and will take a long time to change as. Seeing this thread, many women agree with it.

Yes in my circles most families have 2 working parents although still usually women part time and often taking a pay cut etc to do jobs that fit around kids more. It is still seen as, accepted as, women's responsibility. And women do it. And then other women tell them off for it... Divide and conquer is what I see. While the men can give a swerve if they fancy (late meeting!) And if they do it, they get recognition.

Whole thing is moving but slowly. In general I don't think framing all unpaid work as pointless, no value etc is helpful at all.

Sorry you are ill hope you managed to get some paracetamol etc before the shops ran out. And bog roll obv!

Also thought of this. To be honest not all working women go out to work and then come back and do the unpaid work of cooking for the children. I may be in the minority but my childminder cooks meals for my children in the week and also unloads the dishwasher. By the time I get home it’s too late and of course I don’t do the unpaid work that stay at home parents can, picking up the children from school, making sure they are ok getting them fed etc. I am not superwoman and can t be in two places at the same time. Maybe my children would benefit if those chores were done by someone who truly loves them. But they also benefit by the fact that my income supports the household. I I do cook for my children at weekends but honestly find it more of hard work than my paid employment which is a job that I am relatively good at. Also find it strange that I get derided on this website for mothers and told I haven’t got a clue for openly admitting that I find sorting out my kid’s bags, checking all the right football kit is in a bit of a chore and yes work! Same as find getting my kids breakfast in the morning, though to be honest my husband does it most of the time. And I do what would be considered a high skilled job for my paid employment. Yes and I have worked long hours and weekends in my paid employment, though not so much now. So I do know what hard work is like. Mostly though because I have looked after my children when they were toddlers. Also the idea that everyone in a high paid jobs is held accountable is very naive. Seen a few of men in very senior jobs who don’t work that hard. And get away with doing the minimum possible. It’s quite difficult to hold people accountable for their work in highly paid, skilled positions as what they do is often intangible and can’t sometimes be measured in basic performance targets.

Also find it strange that I get derided on this website for mothers and told I haven’t got a clue for openly admitting that I find sorting out my kid’s bags, checking all the right football kit is in a bit of a chore and yes work!

You didn’t get derided for that.

You got derided for saying packing a child’s bag was a similar amount of work to what a receptionist does all day.

So don’t know about being a receptionist. But def would consider packing my children’s school bag as equivalent work in terms of effort to quite a few tasks I do in my opaid employment. Maybe unfair to receptionists though! Also it may be reductionist to talk about looking after children as having economic benefits to wider society. I agree with that. But, it is also the truth and one which most people on this site don’t seem to recognise. And all those mums saying it only helps the individual family. Simply not true. Children go out into wider society and how they are brought up, effects what they do. Also the main thing is not whether stay at home parents work harder than those in paid employment or vice versa. The most important thing is the differences between what women and men work and get paid. Women work more and get paid less. Statistics shows that women do more unpaid work round the house in particular than men. And stats also show than women get paid less than men in paid employment. So people should def recognise looking after children as work often unpaid that is done by the most part by women. It is also economic activity which has social benefits Outside the family unit. Also find it interesting that people attacked my stereotype of CEOs as playing golf and driving ferraris around Monaco. The CEO I do know does drive a Porsche with personalised number plates ! But somehow stay at home mums are derided as driving SUVs and watching grey’s anatomy and sex and the city. Stereotype too. Also have jusT demonstrated that just like a stay at home mum perfectly possible to post on mumsnet whilst doing a paid job!!!!

But def would consider packing my children’s school bag as equivalent work in terms of effort to quite a few tasks I do in my opaid employment
What's the point of this statement though? Every mum, or just about will be packing their children school bag, working or not.

The point is not about whether looking after your children is work or not, the issue is that sahp have more time and freedom to carry out that work. Working parents have to do about 75% of what sahp do in 25% of the time.

Being able to look after your children is certainly a privilege but it doesn't have to be shameful. Embrace it, enjoy it, work hard at it, but don't come and make statement that it is as hard as being a ft working parent because it only ever rarely is.

Also have jusT demonstrated that just like a stay at home mum perfectly possible to post on mumsnet whilst doing a paid job!!!!

I do think it depends on the job in question as some are a lot more difficult than being a sahm. My full time job before having dc was so much easier than being a sahm which I found out the hard way. I had my nights and weekend to my self and thought I was tired then!

Not being a parent I general was easier and less stressful. I now worry endlessly about my dc

Yes all a matter of perspective and depends on the job you do whether you find working in paid employment more difficult than being a stay at home parent. But as I said before it’s absolutely not everyone who does the unpaid work of looking after children. It’s mostly women. That’s why we need to make a big deal of it. It’s mostly women who pick up the brunt of the unpaid work looking after children. It’s unpaid work that has social benefits. So by not making a big deal out of it, you are helping out men who by and large get away with not doing a lot of it.

My full time job before having dc was so much easier than being a sahm which I found out the hard way. I had my nights and weekend to my self and thought I was tired then!
I too found looking after two under 3, so without any childcare at all harder than working before having them.

But I also found it much easier than going to work FT AND looking after them before and after.

The point of that statement was that people were saying it’s not work to pack your child a school bag. And I am saying, yes it is. And equivalent to tasks in paid employment. It is a type of work that in most households probably a lot of women do and men don’t. A lot of men in paid employment prob don’t pack their children’s school bags but a lot of women in paid employment do. Also what I am saying is that a lot of women here get caught up in the argument that who works harder? Women who work, or stay at home mums. The more relevant argument is who gets paid more for the hours they work; men or women? And by and large it’s men, as women do more of the unpaid work of looking after children plus get paid less in paid employment. Have to add am lucky to have a husband who does a lot of work in terms of looking after children but statistically most women do unpaid work of looking after children. The arguments on whether stay at home mums work harder than women in paid employment or vice versa depends on individual circumstances.

Exactly anything post dc is so much harder full stop but it is def more enjoyable.

Sorry forgot to tag you @dontdisturbmenow

It is a type of work that in most households probably a lot of women do and men don’t
Still don't get your point. Men are more likely to go DIY, cut the grass, take the bin out etc... all activities that people get paid to do in employment. I've never heard a man going about the fact they do additional work at home and should receive credit for it or even payment.

The way society is set is that if you don't something that only your family benefits from, you don't get payment for it. Call it what you want, work or something else, it makes no difference.

OK. I think the gist of this thread is that any work which benefits society, whether paid or unpaid, deserves recognition either in gold stars or actual payment. This includes packing school bags, on the basis that doing so ensures that children grow up well and become taxpayers.

I would therefore like to claim my recognition for my work at packing my own bag, making my own dinner, and cleaning my own house. All of which enable me to go to work and pay tax right now. This is an even more direct link to societal benefit, because there is no uncertainty about my tax-paying status!

No?

Yes that's right. OF course packing school bags and bringing up children to pack their own school bag deserves a lot of social recognition Really surprised that mothers on a website forum think otherwise to be honest:) It's work like CEO sending an email out (probably drafted by someone else!) to send to his/her staff about coronavirus is work. And work like I just did today in my paid employment like analysis of data/drafting reports is work Not going to talk about which work is the most valuable. That's highly subjective and can be debated to death. It's all work!

also not surprised that men don't go on about the unpaid work they do. They don't do much of it. See here this study by the Government Statistics shows that women shoulder twice the proportion of unpaid work as men (that's cooking, cleaning, bringing up children)

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/womenshouldertheresponsibilityofunpaidwork/2016-11-10

www.imf.org/~/media/Files/Publications/WP/2019/wpiea2019225-print-pdf.ashx
Also here's an article where a rew economists from the International Monetary Fund compared unpaid work between men and women across a lot of countries all over the world I will paste the first bit of what it says "Unpaid work is an important aspect of economic activity and well-being of individuals. Tasks such as caring for children, the elderly, and household chores are indispensable for our daily lives. While unpaid work consumes a significant part of our day, it mostly falls outside the system of national accounts and is not counted as part of GDP. Much unpaid care work is done entirely by choice, and no one can dispute the importance of raising and rearing a child for future economic growth. But too often women are forced to bear the burden of domestic chores, and time spent on unpaid work reflects constraints imposed by cultural norms, lack of public services and infrastructure, or family leave policies."

I going to email a link from this website to the authors of this article,
www.imf.org/~/media/Files/Publications/WP/2019/wpiea2019225-print-pdf.ashx
which looks at the fact that women do lot more unpaid work than men and writing an email like this:

Dear economists or academic experts or whatever you want to call yourselves,

Why have you spent soo much time and effort analysing how much time men and women across the world spend on "unpaid work" across different countries. Cleaning, cooking and doing the laundry is NOT work! That's like something a stroppy teenager would say! Everyone has to do their laundry, cook their meals and iron their clothes. Why on earth are you "wittering" and "bleating" on about it? (Those of you economists who are male have probably never been accused of "wittering" and "bleating" - don't know why but, they are terms used mostly to women.)

Oh, of course your data does show that across the world in everyone single country, women spend far more hours on doing laundry, cooking meals and looking after children than men. But as good women, we will NOT draw attention to it and just say that "everyone" does these tasks without effort every day. As good women, we absolutely don't want to draw attention to the fact that men don't tend to do much of them. So we will say "everyone" does them.

Now you know, in rich, developed countries some of us, in fact a lot of us women get to do proper jobs for which we get paid. Hurray! Those of us that have these proper jobs for which we get paid will no longer consider this "unpaid work" , formerly known as housework and bringing up children, to be even work! Instead it's parental tasks that it is a privilege for all of us to do. As good women, we don't need a gold star or any recognition to do all this 'unpaid' work. We are perfectly happy and it's an absolute pleasure to continue to keep on doing more of this "unpaid work" than men.

As good women, if any other woman dared to complain about this "unpaid work" - it's not actually work, don't know quite what to call it, parental tasks that are a privilege to do but men on the whole do less of and avoid- we, as good women, will silence them. If anyone dares to complain about unloading the dishwasher, we will tell them, it's NOT work, you are having a laugh. If anyone dares to admit that they find packing their children's school bag difficult, we will laugh at them and tell them you are "trolling now" .

As good women, we will also uphold men who, you know, work in very important positions. CEOs for instance who work very long hours into the morning, negotiating contracts and making difficult decisions about who to sack. This is IMPORTANT work that a few men get paid a lot of money to do!!! Not like mothers looking after their sick children in the night. That's something all women do, around the world for no money whatsoever and so is not worth bleating on about. We will also bring down women who say things which are quite obvious like yes, probably a lot of stay at home mothers would make good CEOs. As good women, we will also call out women who may denigrate these CEOs. We will call them "fucking clueless" and tell them we are "cringing" for them. (We know on the most part CEOs tend to never sack themselves and always walk away with massive pay outs but never mind, they do very important jobs, don't you know).

Though we will faithfully protect the reputation of CEOs, we also faithfully as good women, uphold stereotypes of stay at home mothers as women who drop their children in SUVs, watch "Grey's Anatomy" and "Sex and the City", pop a ready meal in the oven and then go and get their kids. We won't talk about those who are too ill to work, too busy looking after children with special needs, or can't find a job, which suits their children's needs or those who very important CEOs have laid off due to the coronavirus outbreak. We will say looking after children is a lifestyle choice! We know a few decades ago women were derided for not looking after children properly when they went out and worked. But who cares about that now?

As for your statement " no one can dispute the importance of raising and rearing a child for future economic growth" . We, as good women dispute this completely. It just benefits the individual household Lastly looking after children is NOT work. It's like gaming, drinking coffee or breathing! WE don't want a gold star for looking after our own children. It's a privilege and pleasure and so enjoyable. We don't know why men choose not to spend so many hours doing it. We also don't know why men get paid so much more in paid employment. Who cares? We may be educated women from a rich, western country. But we are still good women.

Appendix A - Also we have noticed that some women are actually doing “proper work” when looking after other people’s children. These women are lucky enough that capitalism has seen fit that they can be paid minimum wage for it. When they do the same for their own children, the same tasks will, of course, be deemed “non work.” Society has decreed that childcare work is far less skilled than, for instance, a valued job such as an estate agent, so nobody will query this minimum wage. What could possibly go seriously wrong with a group of babies or children?