Looking after your own children IS work

[Bumpitybumper]

Oxford Dictionary definition of "work":
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result

AIBU to suggest that the people that suggest that looking after one's own children isn't work are wrong and in some cases are actively trying to devalue and undermine the people (usually women) that do the majority of childcare?

Would be really interested to understand how anyone can read this definition and argue that looking after children isn't work.

Okay, fair enough.. I am exaggerating here so I apologise to anyone offended by my statement.. looking after our ones kids should be expected.. Calling it 'work'.. I don't know about that one

But I get what people are saying here..btw..i have 4 kids. I must work alot..

And there is not much accountability in a lot of jobs I have seen

Yeah, right. And lol to the private sector not sacking people and anyone who thinks the public sector is a walk in the park hasn't worked in it recently.

From a CEO who has spent her Sunday in front of the laptop desperately trying to find enough work for all my staff to avoid having to ask them to take unpaid leave.

Also the stereotypes of stay at home mothers is v sad and depressing. Driving SUVs. Staying at home watching sex and the city and grey’s anatomy. All the women I know who drive SUVs work. Most of the stay at home mums I know either have kids with SEN, are either looking after very young children or single mums without any support who had pretty low paid but hard jobs And maybe find it really hard juggling looking after children and paid work. There were horrible stereotypes of women in paid work when I was growing up too, as cold hearted women who put their jobs and lifestyle above looking after their own children. These stereotypes of stay at home mums are Said with equal meanness.

This supports a very iffy idea about women, what they are for etc etc. They are there to provide unpaid labour, all over the world, and do it with a smile

In my social circle, this really isn’t the case.

Most couples I know both work. Both also contribute significantly to the running of the house and the parenting of children.

Most (male and female) have either dropped a day or work more flexibly to make this happen.

I know two couples who both work part time (2.5 days each) so that their children don’t got to childcare. They bear the weight of both providing and childcare equally. Admittedly that’s in professions where this is possible. But even in more traditional lines of work, flexibility/compressed hours are common.

I think this is a healthy direction of travel. Where I live (Dublin) is expensive enough to require two salaries, but wouldn’t have the super high earners you see in London. Entirely by chance, this has created an environment where men have been required to step up.

Healthy direction of travel sure

But still statistically in the UK and all over the world the women bear the brunt of it

And the view of plenty of people on this thread that it is no effort, not work (in any meaning of the word) etc is terrible.

When men are out with their kids people say oh isn't he good. When women do it it's literally doing nothing, unworthy of note. Contributes nothing to society etc etc

Direction of travel is irrelevant to most of the world's women at this point and with the view that it's a selfish nothing, things will be even harder to change.

Direction of travel is irrelevant to most of the world's women at this point and with the view that it's a selfish nothing, things will be even harder to change.

It’s really not irrelevant. And it’s shifting slowly in many places.

I can’t think of a better way to heighten the value of things in society than have more men do them, frankly.

I went to a talk a while back at one of my DC’s schools which was interesting because they were saying that the “world of work” and how it is structured is going to change so rapidly for the next generation that it will be virtually unrecognisable. They were saying that many of the traditional “professions” such as law will become obsolete due to automation and AI. Traditional working patterns such as 9-5 Mon-Fri will diminish as people working flexibly from home becomes the norm. More people than ever will be self-employed and it will be common to have several job interests, all on a part-time or flexible basis to enable people to fit work around children etc. They said the rate of change will be unprecedented and many of the jobs out DC will do haven’t even been invented yet.

Where I live in London, the percentage of SAHMs is very high, in fact it’s more common than not, and this is precisely because there is a higher proportion of men who probably earn more than the average salary on any given day (or they make or lose at least this on the stock markets). So, for the wives, they would have to really really like their jobs to keep going. If the money seems negligible, why would you bother with the additional hassle of dealing with nannies etc and it could even feel selfish leaving your children for money that makes no discernible difference to their lives. Then the high earners end up earning even more because they’re totally unfettered by home commitments or the need to work defined hours. So you can see how it’s a reinforcing economic cycle, in this sense.

But generally it's not moving fast at all, men are still lauded for doing what they do, and women pick most of it up, statistically, as it's what they're for, essentially.

I agree that men doing more is good. But, they get cookies, women is still framed as no effort and worthless, basically. That is what needs changing. Attitudes need to change, at a societal level. Given many posts on this thread, even women prefer to render all this effort as a nothing.

So I have worked in both the private and public sector recently. I am in paid employment at the moment. And I never said I was a CEO. Just that I have over 20 years experience in finance which is true. But yes have spent way too much time on mumsnet rather than doing the unpaid work of looking after my children

And I totally agree with Beetroot that diminishing “caring roles” as “non-work” or “no value to society” is so depressing. It effectively renders women invisible, not only those who care for children, but also those who care for elderly relatives or family. It’s the ultimate disrespect to women, not only now but throughout history, in all cultures across the world.

Imagine if you had been home all day with young children and maybe when your DH came in you told him you were a bit tired or something. Imagine if he laughed in your face and told you that what you do is actually nothing. Taking care of his children; making sure they are occupied, stimulated, nourished, educated, socialised, disciplined, happy and safe, is actually nothing. Just “something women do.” And they should never expect to be valued for it in society and therefore not by him. They should just do it with a smile on their face, while simultaneously feeling guilty and diminished because they are not paid for their role.

What kind of man would that husband be?

Yet alarmingly, this is the attitude of so many WOMEN in this thread. Scary stuff.

That's different.
The husband and wife are doing their roles for their family.

But don't expect my husband to care that Bobs wife is a SAHP.

Nobody cares about what anyone else’s wife may or may not be doing, itsall. You’re misunderstanding the point. It’s about basic respect. Whether someone is a banker, a mum a firefighter or a florist.

But that's not what you said.
A man should respect what his wife is doing for the family.

But if someone came to me and said. I am so exhausted because they had to get their school aged children to school and then do the dishes and then pick them up id tell them to fuck off and find their grip.

So for instance, my neighbour is a high earning hedge fund manager. His wife is a carer for their three children and also for his elderly mother who lives with them.

Who is of more “value” to society? It’s a matter of opinion, isn’t it. I would argue that it’s obvious they both are, but just in different ways and that both should be respected for their roles, whether paid or not.

That’s how I relate to people anyway. I don’t respect a banker more than a cleaner, just because he pays more tax or whatever

I think people are confusing financial value to society by saying 'no value to society'.

Every person should be valued. I think people are saying there's no financial value to society when people are SAHPs.

(Not what I'm saying but I think that's what people mean when they say 'no value to society').

Itsall - I think if you said that to anyone you would sound very rude and obnoxious tbh. I can’t imagine why you would feel the need to.

So the reason why looking after children is ‘work’ because it requires effort. But it is also a very important economic activity not comparable to men doing DIY and mowing their lawn. Bringing up children is not specialised or skilled work maybe, but it costs mostly women time and effort but tit has immense social benefits, outside the personal benefits that women get from doing it. That is what makes it a valuable and very important economic activity. If children are looked after by doing these very mundane chores, by and large they will contribute to the state later on as tax payers paying for your pensions and social care. If they are neglected they generally end up costing the state huge amounts of money. Generalisation of course. There are also lots of activities which are paid very well but have immense social costs. Drug smuggling for example. Also investment banking a bit. Investment bankers worked hard and got paid well but risky behaviour on their part plus weak regulation caused the stock market to crash in 2009 and placed an immense burden on taxpayers. Their behaviour had huge social costs though a lot of them benefited financially and most people here would have probably considered them to be in hard working jobs which had accountability. Led to ten years of austerity. And most of them were not held accountable for either bringing their companies to financial ruin and costing the govt huge amounts of money.

Let's be realistic. Whether or not a SAHP benefits society is based on the outcome of the children.

If they have never had a paid job but only produces and raised their offspring then if those offspring turn out to be good active citizens then great.

If they turn out to be unemployed, criminals or overall a burden then no.

If you start valuing people by how much they earn or how much tax they pay, you get onto thin ice very quickly. My DH would never argue he’s more valuable than a nurse, even though he probably pays hundreds of times more tax. He would never devalue me or anybody else’s wife because we are SAH. He knows he couldn’t do it. He understands and values the role. He takes people for who they are. To him it doesn’t matter what you do - just whatever you do, do your best.

I should also say that he comes from a Middle-Eastern culture which many in Britain would regard as backward and sexist. But what I can tell you is that there is a certain level of respect for mothers and the role they play in society that perhaps is disappearing over here (by the sound if this thread anyway).

Obviously nurses are valuable in much more ways than financially... Providing healthcare.

And why do much debate about whether SAHP “benefit society” anyway. Why should they have to prove anything any more than the next person?

It’s like asking how long is a piece of string. There’s some jobs that clearly benefit society. But most jobs - well, they may benefit the individual going them, but society, really? I’m sure we’ve all done jobs in our lives and maybe wondered what the bloody point of It all is.

What I mean by that is it's not a good comparison really. It's very obvious what benefit nurses have on society, they treat the sick!

If someone told me they were exhausted from going to work sitting on a comfortable chair and sending a few emails and having a meeting I could also easily tell them to get a grip! Not as hard as standing up cooking a meal and cleaning the kitchen.

@achainisonlyasstrong you mean the thing that people who work have to do after they come home...from Woking 😂😂😂