Looking after your own children IS work

[Bumpitybumper]

Oxford Dictionary definition of "work":
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result

AIBU to suggest that the people that suggest that looking after one's own children isn't work are wrong and in some cases are actively trying to devalue and undermine the people (usually women) that do the majority of childcare?

Would be really interested to understand how anyone can read this definition and argue that looking after children isn't work.

depends on what people classify as organizing a bag I guess. I know my mum used to spend 5 minutes after school to go through any letters and my homework book to check I am upto date
Gold star to any parent who has spent 5 minutes checking if their children have homework. So much very difficult work that must only be undertaken by those who don't work outside the home.

For that woman she might be tired, ill, recovering from flu but still has got to cook that meal because no one else will do it and she does not have enough money for a take away.
There's so many meals that can be done in under 20 minutes.
She'd have to feed herself children or no children.

For goodness sake are we really trying to convince people that packing a child's bag is hard work now. Get a grip
I agree. What next? Someone has to make the bed and position the throw cushions neatly on the sofa in order to be guest ready at all times (whilst obviously having no plan of opening the door to anyone because nobody answers the door on Mumsnet).
Someone has to out the kettle on if they want a cup of tea because nobody else is around to do it for them?

The attitudes on this thread when added together are shocking
Some are, on both extremes.

Just some of us don't think it's reasonable to count up basic adulting tasks as being hard work (often when work is being used to make silly comparisons to working out the house).
For example, I cooked meals when I was at work, I cook meals now I'm at home. Cooking isn't suddenly a more onerous task.
DH and I both tidy up and clean. It's cleaning and housework regardless of who does it, and it's not a bigger task now I'm at home than it was when I was at work.

Most people don't give a damn how people structure their home lives, they just object to stupid talking up of tasks and silly games of who has it harder.

Exactly @LolaSmiles just because DH and I both work doesn't mean that we don't also parent, it also doesn't mean that we don't keep house.

The implication repeated throughout this thread is that only SAHPs spend time with their kids or cook meals and clean, or that WOHPs all have cleaners, gardeners, live on ready meals and take always and have never helped with homework.

TorysSuckRevokeArticle50
That's the attitude I struggle with.
I can't get on board with the suggestion that somehow tasks everyone does are somehow more difficult if completed at home 9-5 Mon-Fri than if they are completed on evenings or weekends. I also can't get my head around the logic that these tasks are so much more work than a job because it's a 7 day a week thing, but at the same time people who have to fit the same tasks into their weekend have it better because they get a 'break' at the weekend (where seemingly the same chores must be substantially easier).
These sorts of claims are ridiculous.

What really irritates me is that some think that commenting on this is somehow denying women's contributions/hating on SAHP/not valuing domestic tasks and so on, when really it's just pointing out that the same tasks don't become more or less difficult based on the employment status of the person completing them or the time/day the tasks are completed.

Just some of us don't think it's reasonable to count up basic adulting tasks as being hard work

Masses and masses of posters aren’t saying its hard work

They are saying its work

But like a lot of posters who have given up on the thread i will Too, as its got to the ‘saying fucking stupid things, purposefully misinterpreting posts and being mean for no reason’ stage.

Which is boring

Oh abject apologies lola

I did not mean that you are doing those things when i quoted your post...I should have done two separate posts

@BeetrootRocks, oh because it's your job it must mean that it's very a common role available for most mums. Of course!

Ok. Completely glad that many women find doing housework v easy. And bringing up children v easy. But there are lots of paid employment out there which are also v easy, especially if you were brought up in a rich environment and have the skills to do it. As for me, I disagree with almost all posters in this thread. I would like my work as a mother so organising bags, cooking meals and checking homework to be given social recognition and recognised as unpaid hard work. My work in paid employment which involves data analysis, writing emails and drafting a few reports and managing a few people who are on the most part very motivated receives ample financial and social recognition. Also checking you child’s homework unfortunately is not a routine everyday task that everyone can do. And it is also a task that has social benefits. If you check your child’s homework or generally are more involved in their school work, they are more likely to do well at school, get more skilled jobs and pay higher taxes etc. Definitely mothers and fathers deserve huge gold stars for being involved in their children’s school work!! Also looking after children is unpaid work whether you do it after paid employment or are a stay at home mum. So nothing against working mothers. I am one too! Lots of jobs involve routine monotonous bits too. Honestly I can say, what’s the big deal in doing them and making a big deal out of them? Same as cooking dinner for children and packing their bags and loading the washing machine? What

RufustheLanglovingreindeer
Not a problem. I didn't take it that way.

I think a lot depends on how people think about work.

I wouldn't personally count day to day adult living tasks as work as they're just things that everyone has to do.
Based on the definitions
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result..
a task or tasks to be undertaken.
Then anyone can argue almost anything is work.
This is where context matters and intended meaning matters to unpick whether someone is reasonable in their claims or implications.

For example, if we are to say anything that literally fits those two definitions of work, then technically there's no reason for anyone to complain if DH is creating unnecessary DIY projects because it's work, or DP is gaming or doing his hobby because it is a series of tasks to get an end result.
I'm willing to bet that (rightly) the 'any task in the house is work' group wouldn't be so quick to see those things as work.

I'm at home at the moment, if someone said what are you doing tomorrow then I'd tell them my plans with DC, I wouldn't say I'm working because that would be to deliberately ignore how words are used in practice and would be misleading.

And if we're going to say that (as some are) that chores etc are most definitely work, then they can't start suggesting that somehow those working in a job have it easier/get a break at the weekend when they do their chores, because surely if chores are work then EVERYONE works a 7 day week.

Same on these sorts of threads, it almost always comes down to selectively shifting between common usage/understanding and "technically the dictionary says..." in order to argue one group has it harder/cares more than the other.

This thread is doing my head in.

All this wittering in about who does housework and how much and when.

The fact that people are even talking about housework just shows they have zero comprehension of why anyone would be a SAHM in the first place. It’s depressing reading.

Being a SAHM is not about this task or that task. You don’t think about your life in terms if what is “work” and how much / when etc etc.

The point of being a SAHM is simply this -

YOU JUST WANT TO BE THERE.

That’s all it is, simple as that.

The problem on these threads is that if a SAHM comes on and says something like, “I wanted to be the one to spend those daytime hours with my child because I know that ultimately, nobody else will love them or go the extra mile for them in the way I will instinctively,” there will be uproar.

SAHMs know what they are doing and why. They also know that not everyone has the privilege of this choice and that’s why it’s very awkward and disingenuous to come on a thread where there will be a lot of women in homes that need two incomes. They know women get super-defensive if anyone questions their parenting, and if you go on about the importance of just being there for your kids, it could be very upsetting for mums who would love to do this but don’t have the choice.

It’s nothing about tasks or whether it’s work or not. This is irrelevant. Its simply about the being there, No more, no less.

Not every woman has the patience or the personality to SAH and, of course, that’s fine too. If SAH is likely to make you depressed or irritable, then your children are probably better off with someone else because a good mum is a happy mum and if that means working, so be it. People should obviously do what they feel is the best balance for them.

The fact is that in the UK today, most families need two incomes to get by. So having the choice for one parent to stay at home is a privilege most families don’t have. But for those who do have the choice, you can’t blame some of them for wanting to take it. And these families owe no justification to anyone.

It’s simply about the being there. You can’t compare it to a job, it runs so much deeper than this because it’s instinctive. Some days will be busier than others, but this is is obvious. Some days are hard, others are fantastic. It’s freedom in the sense you’re not distracted by work demands or schedules, Its empowering in the sense that you don’t have to rely on anyone else or compromise in the way you wish to bring your children up. It’s restrictive in the sense that you are no longer in your own schedule; you are in the kids” schedules and you have to be prepared to just go with it. But the main thing is that you are simply there for your kids, in the moment, and that’s what it’s about.

For what it’s worth, I believe the OP is asking entirely the wrong question. Of course it’s ‘work’ according to some definitions of the word, but not according to others.

Yes, looking after children (and other dependents) has value to society. However, because we live in a capitalist society, we mostly define and ascribe value (at a societal level rather than individual) in economic terms. Family caring sits outside of that.

Is that a problem? I’m not sure. How would people like to see parenting valued? Presumably they already feel it’s valued by their family unit otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it?

I wonder if a Corona Virus schools-shut down for a month or so would change the balance of opinions expressed on the thread so far...

I'm ready

I’ve been home alone with mine since Friday (I’m in Ireland, schools have closed. DH is abroad).

Must say I’m loving it so far.

@BogRollBOGOF if/when schools shut down, DH and I will be working from home while simultaneously looking after DD. What I imagine this looking like in practice is that We'll have to work our paying jobs into the early hours of the morning to keep up with the workload as during the day We'll be doing schoolwork and craft/exercise type activities with DD.

Cosima1
Brilliant post.
Roles and choices should be respected for what they are with all the pros and cons that come with each choice.

There's absolutely no need for who has it harder / who cares for their kids more/ who is a better role model / who does a better job of packing a sodding school bag.

Laurie I agree.

BogRollBOGOF

I wonder if a Corona Virus schools-shut down for a month or so would change the balance of opinions expressed on the thread so far...
You don't need cornovirus to see how fed up some people get. There's a brilliant meme that does the round every summer holidays where teachers are laughing at people complaining schools should be open more because entertaining 1/2/3 children is terrible

Laurie, yes it’s the wrong question. Housework is housework, we all do it or we employ someone else to do it. Whether this gets done in the day or in the middle of the night or whenever by whoever is neither here nor there. Everyone has their own standards for this kind of work anyway, whether they work or not.

Nobody becomes a SAHM to do housework. If you end up with more time for such tasks, that’s just a by-product. People SAH because they instinctively believe that this is the best thing for their children and that’s all there is to it. I understand how this could sound like a smug thing to say and I completely get why some will not like hearing it, but it’s the truth.

Bring there with your own children is something you can’t really compare to anything else, It doesn’t matter whether it’s “work” or not, you can’t put a value on it really. If you know why you are doing it, such questions are irrelevant.

Don'tdisturb, while IT has a big imbalance between men and women, there are still a good number of women working in the sector, it's a large sector.

And working from home is also something that is not unusual in the sector.

The idea, that this thread boils down to. Is the unpaid work women do all over the world all the time is nonproductive, gives nothing to society or the economy, and is essentially selfish to do, and oh yes we should all be doing it uncomplainingly for love no matter what

Vs

Men working in paid jobs are very important and it's very very hard and awful, irrespective of what the man actually does

Is just really grim.

I don't know that anyone has said that whole lot in such stark terms bit added together this is what you get.

The at women working in IT FFS. Yes hundreds of jobs in IT are advertised every week and they are not marked 'men only' on the ads. The idea that a job ad is not 'for' women if they have children is bonkers.

And also, if I had been in a position where I had had to leave my kids with a nanny or put then in a daycentre while I went to work, then I would still have considered myself to be parenting in those hours because I would have been doing what au need to do In the best interest of my children and I would be proud to do that. Whether you are at home or in whatever job of whatever description, every mum is doing what she does because her children are her top priority. We all know this. That’s why we should all give each other a break.

No not everything can be classified as work as watching tv, gaming are leisure which benefits no one but yourself. Looking after children is unpaid work which costs women mostly in terms of time and effort. It benefits the whole of society and is a big deal as you are raising future responsible tax payers and people who will be productive in society. The better mothers and fathers you are the better society will be. And yes being a good mother does involve doing a whole lot of mundane chores which a lot of people are telling me are v easy and to stop making a big deal of it. But I can say the same goes for paid employment.

How can looking after your own children be classified as work. What a stupid thing to say. This sounds like something that would be said like a child or a stroppy teenager..

Also BeetrootRocks I was not saying someone who works inIT who works at home without make up was not working! Someone said that stay at home mums don t have to turn up to office on time and don t have to wear make up. I was saying that you can be in paid work and not have to turn up to office on time and obv don’t have to wear make up. Incidentally obv you don t have to wear make up in office either!

No not everything can be classified as work as watching tv, gaming are leisure which benefits no one but yourself
But technically the dictionary definition of work is:

activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.."
"a task or tasks to be undertaken

Nowhere in the definition does it say that work has to benefit anyone other than yourself.
Nowhere does it say there has to be a benefit to society.

This is somewhat highlighting my point of selective adhering to the letter of dictionary definitions.

If any chore or basic life task can be classed as work rather than 'part of functioning as an adult' then all tasks fitting the dictionary definition have to count.
In which case doing a sudoku puzzle counts as it's using mental effort in order to achieve a goal.

*meant to say it's something that a child or a teenager would say..

It’s not something a stroppy teenager would say. Most economists classify it as unpaid work which has huge social benefits cos you are raising generations of future tax payers who will pay taxes and pay for your pensions and social care. And yes you are doing it by doing v mundane boring activities like washing clothes and cooking meals and checking their homework. But if you don’t do it, the consequences are enormous as stories of child neglect show. The office for national statistics and all international bodies such as world bank, United Nations etc classify looking after children as work, mostly unpaid. It’s not just something stroppy teenagers say.

Always because work means anything that involves physical or mental effort to achieve a task is work.

This semantics stuff is irritating. I ring my dad and say what you been doing. He says, working in the garden. This is a totally normal standard turn off phrase. So many people directing that it is a totally incorrect usage is, quite frankly, ludicrous.

If the idea is that looking after children, feeding them, keeping them clean, keeping environment safe and clean is a nothing. In fact a selfish luxury. This supports a very iffy idea about women, what they are for etc etc. They are there to provide unpaid labour, all over the world, and do it with a smile. This labour keeps capitalism ticking over. It also contributes to that fact that jobs doing 'women's work' are underpaid and undervalued. None of this is good for women. In working couples the women statistically pick up most of the gruntwork at home. But if we say oh it's nothing oh it's easy oh women love doing all that, then that's a good result. The men gets a rest after his hard day out at work, and the women gets to relax by doing house tasks that give her pleasure.

This thread is crazy tbh.