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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

‘Tricked’ by vegan sausages

449 replies

Rhubarbpeony · 10/03/2020 10:32

I had a friend round for dinner last night. It was a last minute plan (she lives in another city and only told me on the day that she was free that evening) so I didn’t make anything fancy. I had in the fridge a packet of Richmond vegan sausages and some potatoes, which I turned into olive oil mash. I’ve been vegan for about ten years - longer than the entire time I have known this friend. We have cooked for each other many times in the past.

As we were finishing eating, my husband got home from a late work event and saw that we had had the sausages. It’s not a brand we have tried before and they’re much cheaper than the kind we usually get, so he asked if they had been nice. I said they were good, and I’d happily have them again.

Friend gets a really odd look on her face and then says to me ‘you didn’t tell me these were vegan sausages.’ I said no, I assumed she would know that anything I cooked or ate would be vegan. She said I was wrong to assume, and that I had tricked her. She said it would be like me coming to dinner at her house and being tricked into eating a meat sausage.

AIBU or are these two things not the same?! For one thing, I definitely don’t feel like I tricked her - she saw me cook the sausages, and if she had asked anything about them I would have told her what was in them. For another, her diet doesn’t preclude her from eating vegan items, but mine does preclude me from eating meat, so IMO it’s a lot worse to give a vegan a meat sausage than it is to give a non-vegan a vegan sausage.

(for info: the sausages don’t contain any soy, and she doesn’t have any food allergies)

OP posts:
aSofaNearYou · 11/03/2020 12:22

Oh my God, is it not possible to have a thread that in any way relates to veganism without it turning into the same debate about whether it's a good idea or not? It's not relevant to the actual theme of the thread.

NYCDreaming · 11/03/2020 12:37

@CuriousaboutSamphire have a look at this carbon footprint calculator. Honestly, even if you replace all of your meat with avocados that is going to be far better for the environment than eating meat.

Yes there are some foods that don't include animal products that are unhealthy.

I am saying that some veggie/vegan foods are chemicals rather than foods.

All foods are chemicals. Yes some food is highly processed, but that's not limited to foods that don't contain animal products.

Lots of USA foods are too, like squeeze cheese and that marshmallow fluff stuff.

These aren't vegan foods, I'm not sure what your point is.

I am saying that the data often used to show just how much better plant based food is misused. People use it to show how much better it IS, when getting from here to a meat free planet has enormous issues for every animal and human on the planet.

What do you mean? Can you give an example?

I am saying that anyone who uses PETA to prove a point about animal issues is being lied to.

I haven't mentioned PETA.

What is needed to help meat eaters and veggie/vegans alike able to stop being so combative / defensive is a more measured discussion and lots and lots more thinking on HOW we are going to get from here to a more eat free Western world!

So do you want people to reduce their meat consumption or not?

Sunnymummy2020 · 11/03/2020 12:41

I'm an ardent omnivore and have vegetarian friends.
I would never go to dinner to a vegetarian friend's house and expect them to serve me a meal that contains meat?

If your friend has taken as much offence as you say then I'm afraid she's being very odd... and would not be getting a repeat dinner invitation any time soon.

strawberrylipgloss · 11/03/2020 12:44

The friend is a drama queen.

You'd have to tell someone with dietary restrictions (vegan, Halal, allergies... ) what the food contained but you don't have to tell an omnivore that their meal is vegan lol

CarolHasAnotherUTI · 11/03/2020 12:45

When I say catering I mean

Thanks for the explanation, but to be honest I already understood the concept.

do they have real milk for my coffee? Will a potato salad have say bacon, real cheese and whole egg mayo

I'm not vegan and you wouldn't get coffee, never mind milk for it, in my house! I'm not going to buy something that I never drink so that one person can use one spoon of it. It would be incredibly wasteful.

I've never had potato salad that contains bacon and cheese. It's not usually an ingredient. I have had vegan mayo and would happily have it again. I'm not sure I would have noticed the difference.

If you chose to cater for someone that is vegan, then yes, they would expect something they could eat. If you don't want to do that, don't invite them. And if you don't want to eat what they provide, don't accept invitations from them.

Out of curiosity, would you expect someone to go against their religious beliefs to cater for you? Or expect someone with allergies to supply food that would make them ill if they ate it themselves?

CupoTeap · 11/03/2020 13:55

It's because she enjoyed!

heidipi · 11/03/2020 14:14

I was at a house party once where a guest tucked into the lasagne and pronounced it delicious, but when someone mentioned that it was quorn mince and so vegetarian, he was completely enraged and stormed off home.

Bonkers. Just like your friend.

malificent7 · 11/03/2020 14:23

Bonkers!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/03/2020 14:23

@NYCDreaming I think we are reading at cross purposes. I am not trying to be comabtive/argumentative. Just pointing out that being so reduces the likelihood of any positive changes being made

I thought I'd explained about avocados, blueberries, green beans etc! Air miles and the likelihood of increased consumption of a lot of foods with high air miles in the search for variety. Plant based foods have a far shorter shelf life and so air travel is almost obligatory.

Yes there are some foods that don't include animal products that are unhealthy. yes....

All foods are chemicals. Yes some food is highly processed, but that's not limited to foods that don't contain animal products. I was referring to non food foodstuffs. The supposed foods that are lab made. Thankfully we don't have many here but in the USA there are a lot of them, mainly sweet I suspect! But there are very many exosting foods and food additives that are so highly processed as to be nigh on de-natured. I suspect there will be more of them as we reduce animal products. The food industry will need to maintain ts profits...

These aren't vegan foods, I'm not sure what your point is. See above

What do you mean? Can you give an example? Mis applied data? There's some upthread. And I though I had explained it! Showing the comparative impact of foods is only about half the story. There has to be some kind of impact assessment of the cost of reducing meat consumption. You can't just say "Look, we have all stopped eating animals" You have to include the cost of making that change. Almost all of the articles about the comparative impacts of foods neglect to assess the impact of that change!

I haven't mentioned PETA. You and I aren't the only people on thi thread... and the first post you responded to was my repsonse to the OP!

So do you want people to reduce their meat consumption or not? I thought my having said we need to stop bickering about it and start working out HOW TO DO IT might have answered that!

I know how I have done it. In my opinion reducing meat consumption is the first step towards a more sustainable food chain. Then we have to wreck the economy of many countries by stopping the importation of 'out of season' foods. Eat seasonally and more locally. That will have a great impact on both meat eaters and veggie/vegans!

Rhubarbpeony · 11/03/2020 14:29

There has to be some kind of impact assessment of the cost of reducing meat consumption. You can't just say "Look, we have all stopped eating animals" You have to include the cost of making that change.

Can you explain what costs you are referring to here?

I thought my having said we need to stop bickering about it and start working out HOW TO DO IT might have answered that!

I’ve solved this one - next time you want to buy meat, just don’t.

OP posts:
Rhubarbpeony · 11/03/2020 14:31

I thought I'd explained about avocados, blueberries, green beans etc! Air miles and the likelihood of increased consumption of a lot of foods with high air miles in the search for variety. Plant based foods have a far shorter shelf life and so air travel is almost obligatory.

Even when transported by air, the carbon footprint of these foods is significantly less than beef, lamb and dairy. So even if every omnivore in the world ate nothing except berries and avocados flown in from other countries, it would still involve less carbon emissions than consuming cows, sheep, and dairy products.

OP posts:
Beesisabuzzin · 11/03/2020 14:32

I find meat eaters to be the greediest fucks around. They'll eat the food made for them and go round eating the veggie stuff as well, especially at barbecues and dinner parties

Well aren't you a little ray of sunshine.

motherheroic · 11/03/2020 14:41

The friend is pathetic.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 11/03/2020 14:42

Can you explain what costs you are referring to here? I have! I can't see how anyone can NOT see them! The costs of changing farming, manufacturing, all those jobs form farming to processing, sales, distribution etc. They won't happen overnight and who will bear the brunt of all the re-tooling?

I’ve solved this one - next time you want to buy meat, just don’t. Don't be so poe faced! That's the sort of comment that is only designed to piss off a lot of people. It is holier than thou and has no thought whatsoever for the worldwide economy, let alone that of individaul producers.

So even if every omnivore in the world ate nothing except berries and avocados flown in from other countries, it would still involve less carbon emissions than consuming cows, sheep, and dairy products. I don't know how much more clear I can be. Meat eaters will not die, they will start to consume more plant based foods. Those foods, globally not per item, will then have an increased negative impact. That's why using current impact data without including the costs of change don't make sense!

We DON'T KNOW if the negative impact will be less. We can assume it will be... but over what time period and at what cost, as explained

And again... given that I haven't said that I thnk reducing meat comsumption is a bad thing, I have no idea why I am being grilled. If ANY dissent is given this much flaming it is no wonder that the stereotypes are becomeing so engrained.

Veggie / Vegan - evangelistic tossers!!

Meat eaters - the greediest fucks around!!

Lighten up. Have a discussion with open ears!

If1knewiwouldnotbehere · 11/03/2020 14:50

@Wildthyme I find meat eaters to be the greediest fucks around. They'll eat the food made for them and go round eating the veggie stuff as well, especially at barbecues and dinner parties.

This with bells on. I hate catering for veggies and then all the meat eaters eating everything. Bloody outrageous! Happens at all my BBQs, then my Dh complains that I'm making too much. Oh and I'm a meat eater.

GoatCheeseTart · 11/03/2020 14:54

Plant based foods have a far shorter shelf life they do? My fresh broccoli tends to last a lot longer than fresh meat. Or what do you mean?

Meat eaters will not die, they will start to consume more plant based foods. Those foods, globally not per item, will then have an increased negative impact. - I'm not a scientist but doesn't not eating meat have an impact? It is also my understanding that vegan diet, even if consisting fully of imported goods, is more environmentally friendly than eating only locally produced meat.

Rhubarbpeony · 11/03/2020 15:16

Can you explain what costs you are referring to here? I have! I can't see how anyone can NOT see them! The costs of changing farming, manufacturing, all those jobs form farming to processing, sales, distribution etc. They won't happen overnight and who will bear the brunt of all the re-tooling?

But the world going vegan won’t happen overnight either. It’s going to be a gradual decrease as people realise their current rate of meat consumption is unsustainable and give it up. While it’s true that some forms of food processing jobs will be lost as people eat less meat, others will be gained as people eat more plant based foods. Industries die all the time, and we find a way. If we didn’t then there would never be any progress - it would stop us from moving to renewable energy sources because jobs would be lost in the coal industry. It would stop us from using google because of job losses for the yellow pages. Do you see how regressive that is? Change happens all the time, and the reality is we can’t sustain current rates of meat consumption or the consequences are going to be a lot worse than re-tooling.

I’ve solved this one - next time you want to buy meat, just don’t. Don't be so poe faced! That's the sort of comment that is only designed to piss off a lot of people. It is holier than thou and has no thought whatsoever for the worldwide economy, let alone that of individaul producers.

You asked a stupid question and got a glib answer. How else do you think we are going to move to a world which consumes fewer animal products except by a lot of people making an individual decision not to buy them anymore? You asked how we do it - that’s how. By deciding not to, by asking others to consider doing the same. What possible alternative is there? A government ban? Ration books? Vast taxes? Clearly none of those are going to happen (or at least not in the immediate future. Maybe once the oceans have risen enough to swamp the Maldives and most of Oceania we might start taking a more proactive approach).

So even if every omnivore in the world ate nothing except berries and avocados flown in from other countries, it would still involve less carbon emissions than consuming cows, sheep, and dairy products. I don't know how much more clear I can be. Meat eaters will not die, they will start to consume more plant based foods. Those foods, globally not per item, will then have an increased negative impact. That's why using current impact data without including the costs of change don't make sense!

Ok but this is a very simple concept - meat eaters consuming exclusively plant based foods will lead to a massive reduction in carbon emissions, even if all of those foods are flown in from other countries. In other words, the benefit of stopping meat consumption is much greater than the cost of increased imported food consumption.

It’s a simple sum. 1kg of lamb consumed leads to about 40kg of carbon emissions. 1kg of avocados (one of the least environmentally friendly vegan foods) leads to about 0.86kg of carbon emissions. Therefore, meat eaters would have to be eating 46 times as many kilos of avocados as they were eating kilos of beef for the environmental impact to be comparable. Do you see how it’s ridiculous to suggest that the increased consumption of plant based foods, even if they were all imported, would negate the benefit of giving up meat?

We DON'T KNOW if the negative impact will be less. We can assume it will be... but over what time period and at what cost, as explained

We do. As above, it’s a simple sum. This position is widely accepted among climate scientists. It is not a controversial or unproven assertion.

And again... given that I haven't said that I thnk reducing meat comsumption is a bad thing, I have no idea why I am being grilled. If ANY dissent is given this much flaming it is no wonder that the stereotypes are becomeing so engrained.

So when you put your position across you think it’s reasonable, but when I put mine across you’re being flamed? Why is it one rule for you and one rule for me?

A lot of what you have said is wrong. I’m not talking about your opinions on the ethics of eating meat - you can make whatever decisions you like about your own diet and choices. But a lot of the averments you’ve put forward as facts are easily disprovable. I’m entitled to point that out in an open discussion, and I don’t think you can reasonably consider that a flaming.

Veggie / Vegan - evangelistic tossers!!

Meat eaters - the greediest fucks around!!

Some people (not me, you will note) are rude on the internet. What’s your point?

Lighten up. Have a discussion with open ears! good advice, you should follow it.

OP posts:
ContessaferJones · 11/03/2020 15:52

Rhubarbpeony Heavens. Your vag sounds, er, roomy Grin

BTW I am impressed at your stamina in keeping the thread going; I reached my internal silliness limit at the first snipe!

exexpat · 11/03/2020 17:43

Why are people using avocados, blueberries etc as examples of vegan foods when it comes to carbon footprints? I am pretty sure most of the people who eat those in the UK are not vegan.

The big difference in vegan v omnivore diets is the sources of protein - meat and dairy versus plant-based proteins, ie mostly beans, lentils, nuts, wheat gluten etc. Those are all made from crops that have very long shelf-lives and can be shipped in non-refrigerated containers (or grown in Europe), not air-freighted.

I am vegetarian, not vegan, but most of my main meals are plant based, and my cupboards are full of dried beans and lentils that will last for ages and have a very low carbon footprint compared to meat, fish or dairy products.

Harls1969 · 11/03/2020 18:14

Why would she assume you would cook meat? Why didn't she ask before eating them? Tricked? It's not at all the same as giving a vegan or vegetarian meat is it? I eat meet but I also eat things that aren't meat so why would I be offended by vegan sausages? Unless they were rank? 🙈

Daffodily12 · 11/03/2020 18:22

Yes she probably did enjoy them and is annoyed that she did. If she was veggy and you gave her a meat sausage, then she could complain. With friends like that who needs any stress in their life !

Wilkie1956mog · 11/03/2020 18:26

The Richmond meat free sausages are the BEST meat free ones by a mile. Lovely!

Tubs11 · 11/03/2020 18:44

Tell me more about the olive oil mash... Sounds tasty

Kitjat · 11/03/2020 18:51

I've been vegan since 2010 I can't believe your friend has even mentioned this what's her problem obviously not thinking about the suffering this "meat" has endured IF it was meat
She obviously feels "Duped " BECAUSE she enjoyed them so much, move on you can have better FRIENDS than her

Kitjat · 11/03/2020 18:55

Wow interesting

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