‘Tricked’ by vegan sausages

[Rhubarbpeony]

I had a friend round for dinner last night. It was a last minute plan (she lives in another city and only told me on the day that she was free that evening) so I didn’t make anything fancy. I had in the fridge a packet of Richmond vegan sausages and some potatoes, which I turned into olive oil mash. I’ve been vegan for about ten years - longer than the entire time I have known this friend. We have cooked for each other many times in the past.

As we were finishing eating, my husband got home from a late work event and saw that we had had the sausages. It’s not a brand we have tried before and they’re much cheaper than the kind we usually get, so he asked if they had been nice. I said they were good, and I’d happily have them again.

Friend gets a really odd look on her face and then says to me ‘you didn’t tell me these were vegan sausages.’ I said no, I assumed she would know that anything I cooked or ate would be vegan. She said I was wrong to assume, and that I had tricked her. She said it would be like me coming to dinner at her house and being tricked into eating a meat sausage.

AIBU or are these two things not the same?! For one thing, I definitely don’t feel like I tricked her - she saw me cook the sausages, and if she had asked anything about them I would have told her what was in them. For another, her diet doesn’t preclude her from eating vegan items, but mine does preclude me from eating meat, so IMO it’s a lot worse to give a vegan a meat sausage than it is to give a non-vegan a vegan sausage.

(for info: the sausages don’t contain any soy, and she doesn’t have any food allergies)

@squeekums you sound like an incredibly fussy eater. I don't think that you can say with a straight face that a vegan diet is bland when literally the only flavours you appear to like are the salty/fatty ones. Do you like any vegetables at all?

I think there may be a misconception that all vegans are rude, when in fact, you only really hear the rude ones. Eg it could be 'no milk for me, thanks'/'can you stick some of this almond milk in mine, thanks' (and they've brought some of their own) rather than the rude ones who show up and demand to know where the fecking almond milk is.

It's like people saying you can always tell when somebody's wearing a wig. Well, that's true, except for the ones where you can't tell.

The point Curious is making @NYCDreaming is that it’s lazy to toss out there that a vegan diet is healthier, more ethical and more environmentally friendly than an omnivorous one. And she’s right. If we all turned vegan overnight, nothing would change and arguably, the planet could be in worse shape. I agree with her, that the best way forward is to strike a balance.

I think your friend is being ridiculous and also quite rude given that you had cooked for her. The cheek of "graciously" accepting an apology from you for cooking her something she enjoyed (or even if she didn't enjoy it but it didn't kill her, tbh) is astounding.

As to the general argument about whether you need to inform people what you are cooking, I think it's a bit strange that people have a formal discussion about what they're going to serve someone before they go over, unless it's a dinner party type scenario. I very rarely know what I'm going to eat before I go to a friend's house, the food is incidental really.

I have a couple of friends with dietary requirements so I will often check they can eat certain ingredients just before I start cooking, but other than that it would just be a vague "are you ok with pasta/curry/stew" etc. I certainly wouldn't be breaking it down further than that unless they asked. I think people are putting a bit too much emphasis on what they eat and how much they enjoy it, rather than just enjoying time with their friend.

People eat vegan meat for the same reason people use dildos; looks the same, feels the same, fills a hole, no hearts are broken in the process

I love this!

A few people have lamented the fact that vegan friends expect them to have foods in the house that they'd never otherwise buy. That would be entitled behaviour from anyone, and is why MOST vegans tend to go for the black coffee/water option and bring our own biscuits to share with the host, because a) it's polite and b) biscuits

@L1appelDuVide I see what you're saying but I don't think that that is necessarily the case. People criticise vegan diets by pointing to the less environmentally friendly foods that vegans (and omnis) can eat (say avocados or almonds) but if you look at the carbon footprint of avocados vs meat you can see that meat absolutely dwarfs even the least environmentally friendly vegetables. It's the Nirvana fallacy again, that there's no point in doing anything unless it's perfect.

l can say with 100% certainty that they taste and feel like the regular Richmond sausages. Decent sausages, no. Richmond sausages, yes. Make of that what you will

Could it be that they are exactly the same as normal Richmond sausages?

it’s lazy to toss out there that a vegan diet is healthier, more ethical and more environmentally friendly than an omnivorous one. And she’s right. If we all turned vegan overnight, nothing would change and arguably, the planet could be in worse shape. I agree with her, that the best way forward is to strike a balance.

The argument that veganism is more environmentally friendly is not lazily tossed out. It’s absolutely factual.

ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food#the-carbon-footprint-of-eu-diets-where-do-emissions-come-from

On any metric on which you judge the carbon footprint of diets, veganism comes out on top.

Regarding ethics, it depends where you stand. There’s no objective way to judge that. I think it’s the most ethical diet because it causes the least harm to the environment and massively reduces the number of animals who are killed for my benefit. If you have a different ethical position where the environment and animal rights are not at the top of your priority list, you will feel differently. That’s fine. Not everyone shares the same ethical beliefs.

There’s plenty of evidence that a vegan diet can be healthier than an omnivorous one, but too much depends on individual circumstances. I agree with you that this isn’t a blanket claim that should be made. Neither should anyone make a blanket claim than an omnivorous diet is healthier.

I would like to see evidence for your belief that if everyone went vegan overnight, nothing would change. I think quite a lot would change. For one thing, according to this report, greenhouse gas emissions from food would reduce by 70%: www.ox.ac.uk/news/2016-03-22-veggie-based-diets-could-save-8-million-lives-2050-and-cut-global-warming

@ContessaferJones indeed! My friends and family are very used to me turning up with a carton of Oatly in my vag

Christ - in my BAG, not my vag I’m vegan, but not that vegan...

My friends and family are very used to me turning up with a carton of Oatly in my vag

That would be entitled behaviour from anyone, and is why MOST vegans tend to go for the black coffee/water option

True. I ask if they have plant milk. If they do, great. If not, I have coffee, which I've always taken black anyway.
To demand plant milk? Does anyone do that? Maybe, but I wouldn't imagine it's most vegans.

@NYCDreaming I see what you're saying but I don't think that that is necessarily the case. People criticise vegan diets by pointing to the less environmentally friendly foods that vegans (and omnis) can eat (say avocados or almonds) but if you look at the carbon footprint of avocados vs meat you can see that meat absolutely dwarfs even the least environmentally friendly vegetables. It's the Nirvana fallacy again, that there's no point in doing anything unless it's perfect.

I get this point, but has anyone done a carbon footprint predictor of everyone moving over to this diet whilst not having meat (apart from those that need meat proteins). Because if we all stopped at once I'm pretty certain the least EF veggies would have a considerable more impact that their current carbon footprint.

I eat meat becauase I like it, however, I believe we overeat meat and I personally have made great strides to consciously reduce my intake. But that's my choice for me and my family. It just so happens any vegan or veggie out there have made their choices.

I think if I said to someone do yu want a bite to eat whether I was eating meat or not, I'd mention what we're having. I woudl also expect someone to let me know if it wasn't their cup of tea. I don't see why both didn't communicate, but they didn't. (after all this is what this post was about)

I get this point, but has anyone done a carbon footprint predictor of everyone moving over to this diet whilst not having meat (apart from those that need meat proteins). Because if we all stopped at once I'm pretty certain the least EF veggies would have a considerable more impact that their current carbon footprint.

No, that's not correct. They work it out per steak or per avocado, not for the whole beef/avocado industry.

if we all stopped at once

But that will never happen.
Don't forget that plants are also grown to feed to animals.
Most soya is fed to animals, something like 80%.
Plants aren't just grown to feed vegans.

@NYCDreaming might have helped had you also read a later sentence in that post!

Obviously not as bad as meat production but there are real issues that won't go away if we all go veggie overnight.

I wasn't suggesting that any of that was all down to veggie/vegans, just that there are inumerable reasons that being veggie/vegan isn't necessarily healthy for the individual or the planet!

I find meat eaters to be the greediest fucks around. They'll eat the food made for them and go round eating the veggie stuff as well, especially at barbecues and dinner parties.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I mean that's a bit like saying "Oh, I won't give up smoking because I would still have to walk into town along a busy road, so my lungs would be damaged anyway by the pollution. All these people giving up smoking aren't making any difference to their health."

It's much healthier for both the individual and the planet to give up meat, even though eating any food at all will have some environmental impact.

@Booboostwo

Not being goady either, I had to see a nutritionist years ago due to IVF and was told never to eat processed food, just fresh food prepared from scratch. So I do. It’s healthier and you know exactly what you are eating.

The argument that veganism is more environmentally friendly is not lazily tossed out. It’s absolutely factual. Erm, the reality is that we have a meat industry. The point so many are trying to make is that getting rid of that is a huge problem.

We won't all turn veggie/vegan overnight and there is a lot of industry, jobs, animals, everyday products to replace.

We need a sensible discussion about this. Not all the veggie/vegans on one side shouting "look at the Utopia data" and meat eaters on the other shouting about the foul/bland taste etc.

A good place to start is not quoting PETA or trying to use data to show how the world could be tomorrow. PETA lie and that data is comparative, not based in any reality that will be here any time soon.

Until there is an impact assessment done on how we can turn the whole world vegetarian we can't know what that will cost, in money, time or ecological impact - and that's without the cost to many millions of animals, livestock or other, the world over!

I mean that's a bit like saying "Oh, I won't give up smoking because I would still have to walk into town along a busy road, so my lungs would be damaged anyway by the pollution. All these people giving up smoking aren't making any difference to their health." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have no idea how to answer that. You seem to have misunderstood just about everything I was typing!

@CuriousaboutSamphire correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you saying that all food production has negative externalities and some non-animal food production has higher negative externalities than others (e.g. avocados)? Therefore even though animal food production has the highest negative externalities, there would still be negative externalities if everyone switched to a plant-based diet?

Because if you're not saying that then I'm not sure what you're saying.

carton of Oatly in my vag

@Rhubarbpeony Best typo I've seen on MN yet. Genuinely crying here - as, I imagine, are you!

Your friend is being odd about it IMO. And I say that as someone who would never choose to eat vegan food over meat if I was out and about. If I went to a friends house for dinner who is a longstanding vegan, I would expect to eat vegan food and it wouldnt cross my mind not too.

Tricking you into eating meat however is very different.

I am saying that some vegetarian/vegan food options come with their own health risks, some of which are higher than those of meat eaters - RR of stroke being one of them, apparently.

I am saying that some foodstuffs come with a high negative ecological impact, no matter who eats them and, if we all stop eating meat it is reasonable to think that, in the search for variety, those foodstuffs will become more popular. So the negative ecological impact of food is not going to go away and may become worse if we just switch foods rather than our thinking about foods in the first place.

That's why I said that eating ethicaly, locally and seasonally has, by far, the least negative ecological impact.

I am saying that some veggie/vegan foods are chemicals rather than foods. Lots of USA foods are too, like squeeze cheese and that marshmallow fluff stuff. There are many more of these around and the negative ecological impact of those has not been measured.

I am saying that the data often used to show just how much better plant based food is misused. People use it to show how much better it IS, when getting from here to a meat free planet has enormous issues for every animal and human on the planet.

I am saying that anyone who uses PETA to prove a point about animal issues is being lied to.

I am saying that it is a very complex issue and taking sides, snarking at someone with different viewpoints, making odd comparisons is fucking pointless!

What is needed to help meat eaters and veggie/vegans alike able to stop being so combative / defensive is a more measured discussion and lots and lots more thinking on HOW we are going to get from here to a more eat free Western world!

Tricked 😂
It's like when you try and hide the veg for kids now that's tricking.
YANBU.