‘Tricked’ by vegan sausages

[Rhubarbpeony]

I had a friend round for dinner last night. It was a last minute plan (she lives in another city and only told me on the day that she was free that evening) so I didn’t make anything fancy. I had in the fridge a packet of Richmond vegan sausages and some potatoes, which I turned into olive oil mash. I’ve been vegan for about ten years - longer than the entire time I have known this friend. We have cooked for each other many times in the past.

As we were finishing eating, my husband got home from a late work event and saw that we had had the sausages. It’s not a brand we have tried before and they’re much cheaper than the kind we usually get, so he asked if they had been nice. I said they were good, and I’d happily have them again.

Friend gets a really odd look on her face and then says to me ‘you didn’t tell me these were vegan sausages.’ I said no, I assumed she would know that anything I cooked or ate would be vegan. She said I was wrong to assume, and that I had tricked her. She said it would be like me coming to dinner at her house and being tricked into eating a meat sausage.

AIBU or are these two things not the same?! For one thing, I definitely don’t feel like I tricked her - she saw me cook the sausages, and if she had asked anything about them I would have told her what was in them. For another, her diet doesn’t preclude her from eating vegan items, but mine does preclude me from eating meat, so IMO it’s a lot worse to give a vegan a meat sausage than it is to give a non-vegan a vegan sausage.

(for info: the sausages don’t contain any soy, and she doesn’t have any food allergies)

Yes, I was going to say that there are plenty of rebuttals to the 'Cowspiracy' video on YT, as well as arguments laid out in online articles.

So the argument some vegans put forward that it 'isn't the same' when talking about beliefs, is quite offensive in it's moral superiority

FWIW, I don’t see this as an argument about moral superiority. I don’t think that the situations are not the same because I think your beliefs are less valuable than mine. I think they’re not the same because an omnivorous diet includes all forms of food, including vegan food, but a vegan diet doesn’t include meat products.

For what it’s worth, if my friend followed a strictly carnivorous diet and ate nothing but meat, I wouldn’t expect her to eat plant-based food at my house. I would suggest we ate out instead, so both our diets could be accommodated. But if you eat an omnivorous diet then I don’t think being fed a vegan meal at a vegans house is the same as a vegan being fed meat at an omnivore’s house. In the former situation, you’re still being given food that is acceptable as part of your diet. In the latter, you aren’t.

I don't understand how she didn't know? If she knows you're vegan then you obviously weren't eating meat so she couldn't be either...

How are those sausages? I'm not keen on a lot of veggie and vegan sausages but I haven't tried those yet.

I like them - they have a better texture than others I have tried. I’m a bad judge of how like a real sausage they are though because it’s been so long since I had one!

@TealWater are you saying that you eat meat at every meal for ethical reasons?

I would be thankful you hadn't cooked Richmond Irish Sausages because they are the worst most foul smelling sausages i have ever cooked. Your friend needs to get her head out of her backside

There are many who believe eating a healthy balanced diet with meat, as we were designed to do, and dairy, is a healthy, moral and ethical choice. And that animals were put here for us to eat, that we are all part of the food chain, 'the circle of life'. A lot of people genuinely, morally and ethically believe that. And there you go; there is your moral/ethical belief for eating meat.

Do you mind expanding a bit on this please? Because I understand your argument that eating meat can be an ethical choice, but I'm not sure where the ethics actually come into it? Is it a religious thing (since you said that animals were 'put here' to be eaten)? Or are you saying that meat-eating beneficial to society/the environment/the animal kingdom in ways that veganism isn't? This debate comes up on MN so much, and I think I learn something new every time!

@NYCDreaming No, not at all. But unless you're eating only fruit for lunch, say, it is extremely difficult to have a meal that doesn't have any animal products in it, whatsoever.

I must have misunderstood because how I'm reading it sone people are saying that they have a desire, based one ethics, to eat meat at every meal and to deny them that is the same as making a vegan eat non vegan food. But I must have misunderstood because that's obviously stupid.

it is extremely difficult to have a meal that doesn't have any animal products in it, whatsoever.

It isn’t really, once you’re used to it. Umpteen kinds of soup (tomato, leek and potato, curried sweet potato), sandwiches (hummus and roasted red pepper, avocado, spinach and tomato, sundried tomato and avocado, pickled carrot and tahini), falafel, salad, baked potato and beans, pasta salad all make good vegan lunches. There’s even more variety for dinner. Like anything it gets easier the more you know.

But if someone has cooked it for you then it isnt difficult is it?

I think the ethics is basically that we were designed (whether by accident ie evolution or a God, Goddess, or whatever - just plain old-fashioned mother nature) to eat meat as well as plants. A well-balanced diet with food from each of the 5 food groups, as set out by the WHO and Health Departments all around the world, is far healthier than a very restrictive diet. It is the default for a healthful diet, veganism is not the default and is not normal. Dairy, especially, is extremely important for a healthy body and bones. (I probably lean on the side of being more pro-dairy than pro-meat, to be honest).

Another argument, not using wool. Sheep must be sheared, it is cruelty not to shear them. So should we waste the precious resource of their wool? Or utilise it as part of sustainability. I think not using things like wool (what else are you going to do with the wool, destroy it? It's a waste to not use what we are gifted by mother nature) is so extreme, goes too far and makes no sense, when no animal is being killed or harmed for their wool, indeed by shearing their wool, we are caring for them, their comfort, their safety.

It's a waste to not use what we are gifted by mother nature)

Mother Nature did not create sheep who grow so much wool they need humans to shear them. We’ve selectively bred sheep to be the wool producing machines they are today. Sheep shearing can also be very cruel, there were videos going round recently of sheep being abused on British farms during the shearing process.

Here - www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sheep-shearing-wool-peta-farms-rspca-action-punched-beaten-killed-a8508221.html%3famp

(Trigger warning, the video is distressing, you don’t need to watch it - you can just read the accompanying article)

Your friend is nuts.

Sorry to distract from the main topic (OP your friend seems to be acting rather dramatic about something she should have realised - you're vegan, it's your home, you cooked, you didn't mention specifically getting her meat sausages.....soooo... Pretty obvious the sausages were vegan!)

Anyway... Help and advice from the poster about Meatless Farms mince - every time I try to use it, it's disintegrates into a mush! I've tried dry frying it, frying with a bit of oil, even oven baking a bit before I use it in a recipe.... No luck! I have found one from the freezer section of Waitrose that's 'okay' but the Meatless one annoys me as it looks good (their 'patties' are good in a burger bun tho 😁)

You can have all those beliefs about the circle of life but unless you have never cooked yourself a meat free in your life (beans on toast? Veg soup?) the idea that your host is being rude by not serving you meat just doesn't hold water. Also if you haven't actually expressed this belief to your host.

She knows they are not made out of vegans right?

Vegans' toenails and belly button fluff would be fairly reasonable approximation of 'meat sausage' offal and sawdust, wouldn't it?

My ex fil once was enjoying my sons vegan birthday cake, (had vegan guest who I wanted to accomodate) when it was mentioned it was vegan he screwed his face up and put it down and did an audable bluregh! Sound. Some people are just weird and quite frankly rude.

But unless you're eating only fruit for lunch, say, it is extremely difficult to have a meal that doesn't have any animal products in it, whatsoever.

Beans on toast, vegetable soup, peanut butter sandwich, avocado bagel, vegetable pasty, veg and beans wrap, hummus and pitta, pasta or gnocchi with tomato sauce, salad, yesterday's leftovers, jacket potatoes... just off the top of my head. I do find it quite hard to believe that you never have lunch without animal products!

I think the ethics is basically that we were designed (whether by accident ie evolution or a God, Goddess, or whatever - just plain old-fashioned mother nature) to eat meat as well as plants.

For every meal?

A well-balanced diet with food from each of the 5 food groups, as set out by the WHO and Health Departments all around the world, is far healthier than a very restrictive diet. It is the default for a healthful diet, veganism is not the default and is not normal. Dairy, especially, is extremely important for a healthy body and bones. (I probably lean on the side of being more pro-dairy than pro-meat, to be honest).

The NHS and the WHO say that veganism is a healthy diet at any stage of life. It's not dairy which is important for bones, it is calcium and there are many great non-dairy sources of it. Brocolli is great for calcium!

(what else are you going to do with the wool, destroy it? It's a waste to not use what we are gifted by mother nature)

"Mother nature" isn't producing all these animals - intensive farming is producing them. If the demand for wool reduces then less sheep will be bred, there won't just be thousands of unsheared sheep wandering around hoping for someone to come along and shave it off and use it

When is the last time you ate at hers? I wonder if she's already served you something with animal products in and this is her way to "even it out".

I think your friend is being silly.
I’m not a vegan but would obviously eat vegan if a vegan friend was cooking for me .
My only constraint is that I can’t stomach vegan substitutes that contain mushroom protein. I would hope that a vegan friend would check with me.

I think the ethics is basically that we were designed (whether by accident ie evolution or a God, Goddess, or whatever - just plain old-fashioned mother nature) to eat meat as well as plants.

I suppose, to an extent, but we were also designed/evolved to reproduce, but choosing not to isn't considered unethical, quite the opposite in fact, as is true of many other evolutionary traits. So I'm not sure that this supports an ethical argument for eating meat, but I can certainly see that this could be the driving factor for choosing to do so.

A well-balanced diet with food from each of the 5 food groups, as set out by the WHO and Health Departments all around the world, is far healthier than a very restrictive diet. It is the default for a healthful diet, veganism is not the default and is not normal. Dairy, especially, is extremely important for a healthy body and bones. (I probably lean on the side of being more pro-dairy than pro-meat, to be honest).

But meat/dairy isn't one of the food groups and there are whole populations, comprising billions of people, who eat meat-free or dairy-free diets as standard such as India or China (where a large proportion of the population is congenitally lactose intolerant). Meat and dairy aren't specifically recommended by the WHO, and it is only among certain populations that there is an enduring belief that either are needed for the optimal healthy diet.

WRT to wool etc - as a PP said, there would be no need to shear them had man not intervened, and they would happily shed their fleece when they were ready left to themselves. Without humans, animals would line their nests with it etc, but our intervention is neither necessary not preventing waste.

Perhaps it's a question of belief - I don't believe in a 'creator' as such, which might explain why I am struggling with the idea of meat-eating being an active ethical choice rather than a cultural and societal default. Most arguments in favour of eating meat seem to be based more on unwillingness to give it up, or a belief that doing so would make little difference to the state of the world. It's an interesting one, for sure!

I believe in a creator- but I dont believe its unethical not to eat meat.

(I should say that I'm neither vegan nor vegetarian however I can't see how it is arguable that wirth today's production methods the vast vast majority of meat eaters are doing the environment more harm than vegans).