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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

‘Tricked’ by vegan sausages

449 replies

Rhubarbpeony · 10/03/2020 10:32

I had a friend round for dinner last night. It was a last minute plan (she lives in another city and only told me on the day that she was free that evening) so I didn’t make anything fancy. I had in the fridge a packet of Richmond vegan sausages and some potatoes, which I turned into olive oil mash. I’ve been vegan for about ten years - longer than the entire time I have known this friend. We have cooked for each other many times in the past.

As we were finishing eating, my husband got home from a late work event and saw that we had had the sausages. It’s not a brand we have tried before and they’re much cheaper than the kind we usually get, so he asked if they had been nice. I said they were good, and I’d happily have them again.

Friend gets a really odd look on her face and then says to me ‘you didn’t tell me these were vegan sausages.’ I said no, I assumed she would know that anything I cooked or ate would be vegan. She said I was wrong to assume, and that I had tricked her. She said it would be like me coming to dinner at her house and being tricked into eating a meat sausage.

AIBU or are these two things not the same?! For one thing, I definitely don’t feel like I tricked her - she saw me cook the sausages, and if she had asked anything about them I would have told her what was in them. For another, her diet doesn’t preclude her from eating vegan items, but mine does preclude me from eating meat, so IMO it’s a lot worse to give a vegan a meat sausage than it is to give a non-vegan a vegan sausage.

(for info: the sausages don’t contain any soy, and she doesn’t have any food allergies)

OP posts:
NYCDreaming · 10/03/2020 14:15

I can't understand why she thought that you would buy and cook meat sausages for her, especially as you ate them too.

More broadly I think some people here are falling victim to the Nirvana Fallacy. Just because a vegan might buy shower gel in a plastic bottle or buy vegan food from a company that also sells meat products doesn't mean that the good of their decision to abstain from animal products is somehow negated.

Rhubarbpeony · 10/03/2020 14:20

The more I think about it the more I’m of the view that she knew they were vegan sausages and just seized the opportunity to have a dig about not having been specifically told that. I guess it’s possible she forgot I was vegan or thought I had lapsed, but that doesn’t seem likely.

OP posts:
BarbaraofSeville · 10/03/2020 14:24

I can't believe that anyone who ate meat would genuinely believe that a vegan sausage was actual meat, unless she only ever eats disgusting cheapie sausages

Maybe that's it. Richmond's meat sausage USP has always been 'none of that nasty texture or chewyness' you find in other sausages. So maybe the vegan ones are the same?

But I agree that I can't understand how people claim not to be able to tell the difference between meat and vegan sausages. Vegan ones are always softer with less 'bite' and have a slightly artificial taste. You might not notice it if you haven't eaten meat for years, but otherwise, it's very obvious.

GinAndNightnurse · 10/03/2020 14:27

I'm not vegan or even vegetarian. But when eating out I would chose a vegan curry over a beef, lamb or chicken one any day. Vegetable curries have a mix of flavours and textures with different veg in it, meat ones usually just have one kind of meat and little or no veg.

I love a vegetarian/vegan curry. I often fancy the vegetarian choice in restaurants. But that doesn't change my opinion that a great deal of vegan food tastes oddly one dimensional and lacking in something that i can't quite put my finger on.

And no, I don't necessarily mean meat. Grin

Almost all of the laboratory created meat and dairy substitute foods I've tried, and the protein source stuff have been just weird and really unpleasant. No other way to describe it.

MyDcAreMarvel · 10/03/2020 14:27

@bernardswatchplease I am limiting soy because I had read on several sources that it can interfere with fertility. The op says the study that showed that has been debunked so I plan to look into it further.

GinAndNightnurse · 10/03/2020 14:30

Vegan sausages have a lot of God-knows-what additions too, tbf. #balance

More, I'd imagine. They have to get some flavour from somewhere.

ThePlantsitter · 10/03/2020 14:34

Not having eaten meat for years I can still tell the difference between meat and vegan/vegetarian sausages by the smell! And the immense amount of fat that comes out of them too (I guess that's what makes them tasty, as a junk food-y vegetarian I'm not criticising it).

soundsystem · 10/03/2020 14:37

Your friend is a weirdo.

I have a relative who is similar and insisted we should serve meat at (vegetarian) DDs birthday party buffet, because she likes meat, and if it was the other way round she'd provide a veggie option. Not the same thing!

deydododatdodontdeydo · 10/03/2020 14:39

There are ethical questions surrounding eating soy based foods too, since deforestation is occurring to allow for space to grow them.

Most soya beans are grown for animal feed. This is well known.
But, easier to blame vegans for deforestation.

NeverGotMyPuppy · 10/03/2020 14:49

God some people really hate veganism dont they!

Thymelord · 10/03/2020 14:53

God some people really hate veganism dont they

They sure do. It took what, 2 pages, for this thread to become about tasteless vegan food, vegans eating all the soy, scary "fake" meat and the inevitable "What about avocados GOTCHA" bullshit. Predictable, and dull.

Graphista · 10/03/2020 15:00

I swear mn costs me a fortune in getting me to buy foods discussed on here

From your thread title I was expecting their was some wilful deception involved but clearly there wasn’t and no food allergies/intolerances either so she is clearly being unreasonable.

No it’s NOT the same as if she tricked you into eating meat as she KNOWS you are vegan and that would require wilful deception.

Op tvp IS soya

Totally agree with pps saying it’s very often omnivores that make our (vegetarians and vegans) dietary choices into an “issue”.

I’ve been veggie over 30 years now and when people realise (purely from how I order in a restaurant or they spot veggie products in my home I’m not especially militant about it, though happy to discuss in a sensible way) it STILL seems to elicit one of 2 responses:

1 “ohh I don’t actually eat much meat” and further apologetic explanations even though I haven’t shamed them for being meat eaters

2 “ohhh I love my meat couldn’t live without bacon/steak/burgers” - these are the ones that try and make vegetarians/vegans eat meat, wave meat under our noses and other obnoxious behaviour.

Generally I’ve found 1’s tend to be women and 2’s men though not always.

I’ve had idiots trick me into eating meat/meat products which in my case actually IS unhealthy because I discovered after turning veggie (at a time when labelling was woeful especially in restaurants and regulation was dreadful) that red meat and meat products give me an incredibly upset stomach bad enough to land me in hospital. I’m ok with poultry and fish apparently and indeed before becoming veggie I much preferred those to red meat (subconscious recognition of an intolerance?) and when I went veggie stomach problems that had plagued me my whole life all but vanished! My dad has the same stomach problems as me and stayed omni but quit red meat and discovered he was the same we were not at all surprised when they discovered red meat and processed meat was so bad for bowels.

One friend of my ex’s (many issues with him which eventually came to a big row) was like this, total twat! He gave me food that had been cooked in the same pan as crappy cheap beef mince and I had diarrhoea and cramps for the rest of that weekend.

Re vegetarianism and health, I well remember a taxi ride years ago where the taxi rider commented on my slight stature at that time (size 6) saying I must hardly eat! My boyfriend of the time said no she eats more than me! (He was a rugby player and trained hard including high carb high protein diet) it was down to me being veggie which I even looked askance at him for! The taxi driver said not at all, his sister in law was veggie and she was massive! I agreed and said an healthy diet of veggie foods perfectly possible but I didn’t eat like that, i ate healthily but certainly enough and enjoyed my food but also enjoyed a very active lifestyle (ran and swam loads at this point plus walked everywhere/public transport as too young to drive). I’m now 47 and overweight and still veggie but don’t eat as healthily to be honest and several other health issues mean I have a pretty inactive lifestyle now too.

“I wouldn't expect someone who is veggie or vegan to have meat in the fridge on the off chance I'd drop in for food. Equally I wouldn't expect my Jewish and Muslim friends to have pork in, my Hindu friends beef or coeliac friends wheat products.” Exactly!

My friends and family have dietary restrictions for a wide variety of reasons, it’s kind and courteous to acknowledge and accept that. I now live alone so no meat in my house since dd moves out. Dd has a few anaphylactic food allergies so those foods I am now able to have here again but they certainly won’t be in her place obviously, several friends & family who are Jewish and Muslim and observe the associated restrictions and one friend who’s badly allergic to onions, garlic and other alliums which is pretty rare so she very rarely eats out only at known and trusted places and of course none of those foods are in her home.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 10/03/2020 15:02

Meat eaters only ever eat locally sourced, ethical, environmentally friendly produce and vegans only ever eat foreign, transported, processed food apparently.
Show me a meat eater that never eats processed food.
Titanium dioxide is a "scary" chemical often used in fake meats.
But it's in a ton of food, not just vegan meats, because it's white food colouring, just the chemical name for it.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/03/2020 15:08

Show me a meat eater that never eats processed food. That'll be me! All bought from a local farm shop / butchers that is traced from field to fork! Ethical, environmentally friendly, has written for various trade mags about the huge differences between the BBC programme about worldwide production and UK meat industry.

That is assuming that by 'processed' you allow butchering...

We do exist!

Rhubarbpeony · 10/03/2020 15:31

Even if local, if it’s beef or lamb it’s still not environmentally friendly Sad

OP posts:
MrsBethel · 10/03/2020 15:35

Totally agree with pps saying it’s very often omnivores that make our (vegetarians and vegans) dietary choices into an “issue”.

I'm not sure about that. I think it depends on both the omnivore and the vegan. Some people are just arseholes. Meat eaters included. Granted.

But thinking about my friends who are vegan... A few of them, I didn't actually notice they were vegan for a long time. It just didn't come up. One of them: we'd been out for a few meals as part of the same group, and everyone would order what they wanted. No fuss. Nothing. Only when it came up in conversation randomly did they say 'oh, yeah, well of course I'm vegan'. Oh, okay, fine.
And why should it have been obvious before that? I hadn't had them round to mine for dinner at that point, so why would it come up?

Some other vegan's, though, boy do they let you know about it! I think a lot of meat eaters give them a hard time as a sort of tit-for-tat. I reckon they think "if you're going to make a big fuss and bore us about how many vegan options are or are not on every single bloody menu, then we're going to give you the 'you must miss bacon' stuff".

deydododatdodontdeydo · 10/03/2020 15:36

That'll be me!

There's always one Smile
But the supermarket shelves full of non-vegan processed food tells me most meat eaters do.

CarolHasAnotherUTI · 10/03/2020 15:36

if it’s beef or lamb it’s still not environmentally friendly

I'd be interested to know why lamb isn't environmentally friendly. I grew up near lots of sheep, and they basically live on land that isn't suitable for growing crops, and mostly eat things that humans wouldn't be able to use for food. They are born in spring and slaughtered in autumn, so only the ones used for breeding get their food supplemented over winter.

Rhubarbpeony · 10/03/2020 15:40

I think it’s to do with methane emissions - ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local

OP posts:
PersephoneandHades · 10/03/2020 15:47

@TealWater I think you are too. You'll notice that I never said eating meat was unhealthy, or made any comment about the health of other diets, so no, I didn't conveniently leave it out, it was irrelevant to the point (the point being that you said some random person in a store told you a vegan diet is an unhealthy, cult-induced fad, and that is simply incorrect, hence my response).

I've also, like you, made it clear that I am not talking about all meat eaters, so I'm unsure why you think I'm narrow minded? Either way, it's clear from the comments that the majority of people agree with me that the OP's friend was out of order, so I don't feel I'm being 'combative'.

Anyway, you're right, it's best to just agree to disagree, have a good one.

PersephoneandHades · 10/03/2020 15:55

@CarolHasAnotherUTI Have you seen Cowspiracy? It's a really good documentary if you want to know more about why meat isn't considered environmentally friendly. I believe it's on Netflix.

Marcipex · 10/03/2020 16:05

I think your friend is way OTT
however I’ve found a lot of vegan foods give me an upset stomach and so I’d have asked you if they were Quorn.

TealWater · 10/03/2020 16:39

@Shinycat I can't believe I missed your posts! You state exactly how I feel, but am unable to articulate properly. I realise I am not talking to the essence of the original post (and yes, she knew OP was vegan, I don't know why she would have expected real meat sausages); that some vegans seem to think they are making an ethical choice not even meat, but simply cannot conceive of the reverse; that meat-eaters are also making a health and ethical choice to eat meat.

There are many who believe eating a healthy balanced diet with meat, as we were designed to do, and dairy, is a healthy, moral and ethical choice. And that animals were put here for us to eat, that we are all part of the food chain, 'the circle of life'. A lot of people genuinely, morally and ethically believe that. And there you go; there is your moral/ethical belief for eating meat.

So the argument some vegans put forward that it 'isn't the same' when talking about beliefs, is quite offensive in it's moral superiority. They simply cannot even imagine that meat eaters make a moral and ethical decision to eat meat. To them, it can't be moral or ethical, because you consuming animal products. That, the alternative isn't a moral or ethical argument, protected under law. It is.

And as you shown with examples, there is a double standard thing happening. They won't eat meat or animal products, and expect everyone to cater to them, but the reverse? Would they cater to meat eaters? Hell to the no. Yes, I understand the 'they don't want to cook meat, it's against their beliefs', however it just feels so convenient that they have created that argument in such a neat little box. An argument that serves only themselves. Vegetarianism I don't mind, I once was one (and at high school, so yeah, I experienced some crap for that), as it is simply not eating meat. That's it. Dessert - Cake with eggs and cream/milk in it? Fine. Ice cream? Fine. Biscuits? Fine. Coffee, tea etc with milk, fine. But when you have no dairy, no eggs, nothing that has gelatine in it, etc etc and etc it is a herculean effort to find something satisfying and substantial that sticks to those extremes. It is the lengths people have to go to for a vegan, that does not seem to be reciprocated and then the dismissive - 'well we have moral and ethical reasons for not eating meat, you have no moral or ethical reasons for eating meat', it certainly doesn't help the goodwill.

GinAndNightnurse · 10/03/2020 16:41

Have you seen Cowspiracy? It's a really good documentary if you want to know more about why meat isn't considered environmentally friendly. I believe it's on Netflix.

And then you can watch the antidote to Cowspiracy, called The Magic Pill. Also on Netflix. Smile

TealWater · 10/03/2020 16:45

As for the environmental argument, I believe our over-populated planet, as well as coal plants is a big factor there. I think if we could work on those 2 things, meat/dairy farming can become sustainable.

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