To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

[ElderAve]

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

• It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
• Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
• We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

They are expensive because you have to pay salaries of people to provide constant care.

Everyone fretting about care fees I wish the link would be made to women’s previously unpaid labour - which was minimally valued - we are no longer prepared to or are not able to provide free care because we are working. Dh granny cared for her own parents and her dhs at home. Wouldn’t happen now.

I think those that have managed to buy their own property have it available to fund a better choice of care home for themselves rather than the one the local authority chooses for you...

Yes if DC want to inherit it's likely they will need to look after their DP. I hope my DC will be spared the burden of feeling like they don't have a choice because we will own our own home.

That way, those who don't have savings/their own home can still be paid for.

That's also flawed. Someone who earns 100k, never buys a house and spends every penny on strippers/cocaine/ferraris could then have the state pay for them, whereas Mrs Bloggs who diligently pays into a mortgage and saves every penny will have to spend it all on care.

My mum is only 63 but already struggles to get out & about due to arthritis & some days needs help with everyday tasks like cleaning etc. If she's anything like my grandmother she will likely end up with dementia.

Anecdotally all the women on my mums side of the family have lived well into their 80's with one or two living past 90... this potentially gives my mum anything from 15-30 years still to live - I have 27 years still to work so it's a safe bet that she'll have to sell her house to fund her care.

While I have no issue with this like a PP I worry about the level of care that she'll receive given that for such a vocational profession there is very little regulation (DBS checks aren't often worth the paper they're printed on) & attracts some of the least caring people.

Sadly so much ignorance on this thread. And clearly lots of people who haven’t had to live with the reality of dementia (and other similar degenerative conditions). Only a minority of people end up needing the kind of long term extensive care that ends up costing £10000s. Most of those have dementia or other similar conditions. Consequently forcing them to sell their properties to pay for their care is inherently discriminatory against those who have dementia. A tax that those who die after only a short illness or very suddenly won’t ever have to incur. Why should people living with one of the cruellest of all conditions have they added stress of their life savings going down the pan. The “treatment” for dementia is good nursing care and a dignified painless end of life. People with cancer aren’t forced to sell their homes to pay for their treatment why on earth should people with dementia have to do so.
Also consider the living partners/spouse who live in the house. What protection for them?
The Dilnott report published a few years ago made eminently sensible suggestions on this if anyone is interested in a fairer way that is also pragmatic from an average taxpayers point of view .
Furthermore on the subject of euthanasia lots of valid arguments but again it’s easy to say until you’re living with the reality of a neurodegenerative illness. It’s very hard to make the tough decision about the “right” time to go before you lose your capacity to make that decision.

So "we" prefer euthanasia to having homes that are no longer required forfeited?

I think as an adult of sound mine I should have the means to end my life with access to safe drugs that will result in death if I have a progressive disease with no known cure, yes. Instead it's join groups like Exit and if you have the funds go abroad to get hold of pentobarbital or take your chances with hanging or ex-sanguination or the like to try to end things.

Why are care homes so expensive?

Because....salaries, on-costs, building maintenance, linen and washing costs, utilities, food of a fair quality prepared by someone who knows what they’re doing, activities, staff training...but most of all profit. Care is a profit making industry.

If you self fund in many care homes, you will subsidise those that the council are funding. That's not fair either!

Having said that, I don't think care homes are appropriate for all - a much wider range of assisted living would be better. (Much cheaper)

I very much doubt with the diets that the present generation consume (in general) that we will experience the same degree of longevity as the older generation now.

DGRossetti national insurance is far, far to low to cover all the things it's meant to.

In Germany health, care, state pension, state unemployment insurance are all listed separately on pay slip as compulsory deductions separate to tax and add up to around 25% of gross salary, not 12% and there isn't the drop off on salary over 50k as there is in the UK (national insurance is only charged at 2% on income over 50k in the UK for some reason, but stays at the same % in Germany no Matt what you earn (although you can shop around for private equivalents over a certain income which leaves young, healthy high earners better off but bites them hard if they lose their income as they can't easily swap back and are required to pay in advance and claim costs back from private insurance, so not generally a long term brilliant idea).

Lindor, I'm not sure that fairness can come into it, how else do we pay for it? There's no suggestion tat homes should be sold where there's a spouse still living there as far as I'm aware.

I agree re euthanasia. It's something that I hear a lot, we'll be off to Switzerland before we become a burden. But how can you know? I'd suggest that, especially with dementia, if you're well enough to make that decision, you're not ready to die.

Dh and I are doing as much as we can to ensure there are the finances available to pay for noir own care so that dd won't have that burden. I'm aware we are in a good place financially to be able to do that. We will also downsize when older and that will free up more money too. I

It should be up to the old person to pay for their care out of their existing assets is possible, not their children. The burden of providing care at home pretty much always falls onto the women, daughters or daughters-in-law.
The state should put more into supporting people to stay in their own homes, not just for old people but also for disabled people where a lot of funding cuts means it is easier to put someone into residential care than let them stay at home with eg twice daily visits, even though the residential care is a lot more expensive.

I read an article a couple of years ago that absolutely made my blood boil. It was an interview with an MP, although sadly I can't remember who it was. And he was simultaneously talking about wanting to encourage families to have two parents working full time, 'contributing to society' (because we all know that the only way you can contribute to society is by earning a big salary and paying lots of tax) and almost in the next breath he talked about how selfish families are for not wanting to take care of their elderly relatives. So essentially what he was saying was that in his brave new world, women should be out there working full time, and simultaneously looking after their aged parents. And it was women he was discussing. Anything less was a symptom of entitled thinking, and wanting to be a taker rather than a giver. He seemed incapable of grasping the concept that he was effectively demanding that women, in order to be decent citizens, should be able to be in three places at once - at work, looking after their children, and looking after their parents.

@Leaannb Yes the insurance is available. It's expensive and most people won't have it.

The German model of care insurance sounds interesting, otherwise it is a lottery who needs 24 hour care and who doesn't. It is terrible health that puts people in nursing homes not just age and the people who need that level of care have very high needs. Other health risks do not fall on the individual, they are covered by national insurance. To those posting "she can whistle for help from me",the older person involved would probably be appalled at the prospect of you looking after them. This is a huge and growing problem. People are living longer with more complex needs I hope I get something quick and retain my mental faculties but we can't chose. How horrible to think of losing control of our behaviour and cognitions and making demands on our families.

I have a relative who in the worst home she worked in had 20 people to get up and fed each morning. Residents were lucky if they got a shower every few weeks. The home was a shit hole and the owners only interested in how much profit they could make. Less than minimum wage when you took into account the careers rarely got breaks or got out on time. No sick pay or holiday pay.

She now works in a charity run home. She has 3 residents on her morning rota and is the named carer for one. It is a lovely modern home where she receives quite a bit of minimum wage, has a proper contract with sick pay and holidays and is a valued member of staff. Food was nasty but that didn’t matter as the staff had no time to help the residents eat it. And we won’t even go into the lack of needed equipment and consumerbles.

The standards in vary from somewhere you wouldn’t leave your dog to somewhere you could see your parent bring well looked after and happy.

4 parents...4 working offspring That's not universal you know, in my family its 2 parents + their 2 childless siblings, to 1 working offspring - at least in the nursing home setting the 4 people being cared for by one person are all in the same place!!

DGRossetti national insurance is far, far to low to cover all the things it's meant to.

Oh, I know. But it's what it was supposed to pay for. If it's not kept up with the times, it's a failure of successive governments.

Bearing in mind the penalties for not paying it (plus the fact few people could avoid paying it) it's shame we can't quite seem to focus the blame where is should go.

Anyway, moving forwards, since this is a public website, I wonder if we'll see some moves by the government to address the issue, based on suggestions here. Maybe some form of subsidised euthanasia programme - clearly there is a gap in the market for some sort of oversight of providers - maybe "OFOFF" ? The Office For companies that OFF ? I can easily see the governments favoured companies getting involved. Obviously ATOS - after all they've got a head start. Virgin ? I can see the ads now - Beardy Branson on a poster waving a needle around with a smile and a picture of some clouds behind him.

I wonder if Groupon could do a few special offers ?

I'd suggest that, especially with dementia, if you're well enough to make that decision, you're not ready to die.

Sadly, if you are serious about ending your life before your disease progresses, then you have to do it long before you are 'ready' to die. There is no other way to work it besides perhaps advanced directives that state NO treatment other than palliative for anything, which may not be honoured.

Even in those countries that allow assisted suicide, it's extremely rare. People go on and on about going to Dignitas but few do it- in old age, many don't have the capacity to decide (most with Alzheimers) and in a lot of countries, you can only have an assisted death if you have six or less months to live- that's hardly saving a packet on care fees to put it bluntly. People just won't actually do it unless their death is
known about in advance and so terrible they are just hastening it a bit. Killing off old people who just feel a bit fed up and depressed isn't something likely to be legalized any time soon. I am not against assisted suicide but it isn't a solution to elder care in any shape or form.

OP I’m confused by your post

People already do have to sell their homes to pay for care if they don’t have the funds outside the house.

People’s homes should be used to finance their care- if their relatives would prefer the inheritance they can look after them!

That assumes that the relatives can care for them. My father needed specialist care that none of us were able to provide no matter how willing we were.

I'd suggest that, especially with dementia, if you're well enough to make that decision, you're not ready to die

I would happily make that decision now, at 50. I have seen dementia and I don’t want it for my children. I am totally within my right mind today. Happy to pay for counselling and legal advice and then sign a ‘if I am wandering the streets in my underwear at 2am please do away with me’ advanced directive. A small window of opportunity - say aged 50 to 55 - old enough to have experprience of illness and dying, young enough for the majority to be of sound mind. You could also sign up to ‘do not let me die at any cost, resuscitate until I won’t wake up regardless of mental state’ which would have to be followed.

I don’t think it’s as difficult as we think. Get people at the right time

Even in those countries that allow assisted suicide, it's extremely rare.

Surely that's what marketing and advertising are for ?

My mum is 70 & still works but has a spinal wedge fracture & bad arthritis which cause her problems.

She has said strongly that she doesn't want me to help her in any way as she gets older despite me wanting to help her (I work as a hospital HCA so I'm experienced at care work).
I can see problems arising because she won't want carers from agencies either in the future should she need them.

My late Nan refused help from her family & from carers and deteriorated into a mess until she had to be sectioned, then she sadly died before having to go into a dementia home. It was awful & so frustrating wanting to help but being turned away.

My mum is very similar to my late Nan in her attitudes to life & it worries me.

Not all elderly people are nice compliant old dears who will happily accept help from family or professionals when it is offered.
Sorry OP.