To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

[ElderAve]

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

• It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
• Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
• We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

Op have you cared for an elderly relative yourself ?

There is not a black & white answer to an increasing ageing population

Some children don't even start work until their late 20s, after university, gap year travels. Their parents are still supporting them, plus their elderly parents & sometimes grand parents

YABU because by the time most elderly people are deemed by social services to need 24hr care, they are beyond being looked after at home. Many have advanced dementia which means it is virtually impossible, even dangerous, to look after them at home as they need watching 24hrs a day to ensure they are not switching empty kettles on, leaving taps running, falling or any number of things during the night.

Even without dementia, they are likely to be very frail and need someone to be around at all times - often impossible when people have to go out to work.

Everyone has to pay for their own care until assets are more or less used up too.

The thought of my two having to provide personal care to me makes me shudder ; ok if it's a bit of shopping or housework but I'm not even sure they would do this! We get on ok and not fallen out or anything , but I know they will have normal jobs and not earn a fortune and always have to work and certainly won't get a final salary pension as my dh is lucky enough to get after 40 odd years in one job.
Ds2 already has had three jobs because of redundancies etc and his only 23. He does 12 hour days. No more 'jobs for life ' mean they will be working for a long time just to survive and pay the bills let alone care for me or dh!
It's an uncertain world and I didn't have them to end up caring for me! I know I sound a bit naive about the future plus they might even emigrate like my uncle did : he never came home at all let alone look after his elderly parents (and this was years ago. )
I am dreading old age. It seems bleak now and will get bleaker I'm sure as we have an ageing population too and people don't want to give up their lives for their parents either!

We are in a pickle with parents at the moment. Dad needs quite complex personal care and is immobile.
Mum is struggling on like a martyr but increasingly calling me and y sister in (think daily) to literally deal with the sh&t. We are increasingly mutinous.
Parents are literally multi millionaires but won't buy in help. It's not that they expect free help. They just don't want 'strangers' in their house.
We're at our wits ends. I am about to say it very straight - we won't help any more, and if we lose the inheritance so be it!

What I'm saying is that the reality of care is ghastly and really ought to be left to professionals. Who ought to be paid properly. And if that's from the sale of property then I'd vote for it.

@TheoneandObi, please, please say that. I had to.

Initially I had to say that carers three times a day and a hot meal delivered at lunch time was non negotiable and if my dad had any better ideas, I was happy to listen to them. Needless to say, he didn’t.

When they came to need 24/7 care, he was involved in choosing the care home but, again, I couldn’t support them at home any more.

My parents’ GP said to me once that the day comes when the parent child relationship is reversed, their decision making capability goes and essentially they have to do as they’re told. It’s a very hard thing to do but the time comes when there’s no alternative. Good luck!

The time has come for your dad's needs to be prioritised over his wants Theone and his wants do not trump yours. It is massively unfair of your DP to expect you in the prime of your life to be so tied and on-call indefinitely. Do you not have jobs, partners, families of your own? What about holidays and trips away?
It's not feasible long term to carry on like that. People go on for years with very poor health after having the best of their lives. Now it's your turn. Becoming bitter and not resolving this will taint your relationship with them irreversibly.
I'd say it's strangers in the home or a care home.

They just don't want 'strangers' in their house
they are taking you for a pair of mugs, you should just refuse!

Theone, sometimes enough is enough.
You need to try and be firm that they need help. If they can afford it then this is also a good thing as they could afford private carers and they are better than using someone the social services might use or suggest. My experience anyway.
At least they need to meet you halfway.

It is a common refrain where elderly people refuse care because of "strangers". Unfortunately people can become stubborn and entitled and it is incredibly difficult to deal with. A previously "normal" parent descends into this knot of self obsession and self preservation.

I agree that nearly everyone denies they have dementia. I suppose that's reasonable. I was thinking, if one of my dcs told me I had dementia, I'd be a) you cheeky bugger and b) feel afraid and determined to prove it untrue. The pil were in cahoots to cover up mil's dementia. With hindsight it had been going on for years before it became really apparent.

A previously normal parent descends into this knot of self obsession and self-preservation
⏫ This exactly, I feel you've summed it up exactly here Irma!

I think that people who own their own home should have to sell it to pay for care. Why should younger people have to find care when they have not benefited from a housing boom and will not get to retire at an earlier age or have better pension schemes?

I understand people have worked hard to own a nice home and it may feel unfair to think my parents have promised me they will leave their home but I think the fairest way is for it to be sold to fund care but with a certain % protected for savings/pass on as inheritance if chosen.

My dad died and left nothing. He was awful and we were not in contact so I wouldn’t have accepted it or donated it to charity but my grandma owns her home even tho it is low value compared to most but I would rather her house be sold and good standard of care be provided if she needed it than to think that she gets low standard of care and instead money go to her daughters. I would think badly of my mum and her sisters if they would rather the money than their mother get better care when elderly.

@TheoneandObi - what they said ^^. Your parents have to accept Carers now, it's time to say no to them.

I don't think it's unfair that some people have to pay for care home if they have the means, or that it's unfair because dementia. The reality of dementia is it can go on for many years, and many of those may be in a care home, which costs a lot of money. It could be another illness but the nature of dementia means that it's often that.

If I lost my job but I had £50,000 in savings I can't claim most benefits until I've used my savings down to £16000 or whatever it is. Paying for care homes is the same thing; it can't be given 'free' when the person has the ability to pay for it. Young, poorer people shouldn't be paying for rich old people's care, Life is unfair in so many ways; I don't know why towards the end of life it should be different.

I'm about to say it very straight -we won't help anymore
One problem is that the parents are trying to lord it over you whilst at the same time I'm wanting you to act as a parent/guardian towards them
they throw themselves on your mercy but they also want to boss you about and tell you what to do,
or to put it another way, biting the hand that feeds them, looking a gift horse in the mouth etc

By the time people with dementia go into residential care, the illness will have been prevalent for many years, in most cases families would have picked up the responsibility for care during that time, probably saving the taxpayer a considerable amount of money, at the expense of their own physical and mental health and finances, until the point where a crisis forces the decision for long term care. It’s all very well saying “your not entitled to an inheritance”, but it seems spectacularly unkind to throw that at families who have already lost the health lottery. The 5-10 years of caring puts these families at a vulnerable position already, removing the hope that children or grandchildren would inherit a property that would allow them time to manage long term health conditions out of care is irresistible.

I personally think people with properties should contribute to their with care by paying the market monthly rent from their properties. And the rest funded by an increase in taxes.

I think that people who own their own home should have to sell it to pay for care

Do you also think that people diagnosed with cancer should pay for their own care (as opposed to medical treatment)? If not, why would you make a distinction between cancer and dementia/Parkinsons. Indeed, would you make a distinction between a young cancer (or Parkinsons or early onset dementia) patient requiring personal care as well as medical care and an elderly one? if so, why? If you are going on age it is a very slippery slope.

I am a fan of inheritance tax, but I am not a fan of people's assets being taken away from them to fund care. It is fairer for everyone to say pay 20% than it is for some people to pay more or less 100%, But as I said further up the thread no way will this government countenance an expansion of IHT.

Considering councils give a big discount to their tenants and actively promote home ownership , then surely it should be fair that all people with special needs / dementia/ Parkinson etc not just cancer patients are also provided for ?
Husbands relative bought from the council in the 80s and made a small fortune when he moved on.
He has owned his place for years and is now sadly dying of cancer ; his children will be incredibly rich once it's sold on and he hasn't paid for any of his care!
My dads savings are being eaten away by a care home ; he doesn't own a property either , but just unlucky enough to have Alzheimer's / vascular dementia and his former home is now housing one of many on the council homeless list which is also a good thing but means his still penalised for not owning a property to pay for his care home fees.
It seems very unfair to me and before anyone says I'm jealous I'm not I'm just pointing out how some things work for some and not others! It's not a level playing field and health is a lottery but get one thing and your cares are paid for or get something else and your not and it's ' tough luck' ! I did write to myM P but he just said ' it's always been this way' dad isn't entitled to continue health care. Not ill enough!
None of this is good , but I think it's unjust.
No wonder people smoke and drink! Who wants to live forever? Not me!
Interesting thread.

So a person could be in their 60s with poor health
Looking after 4 parents in their 80s in poor health
Looking after 4 grand parents in their 100s in poor health

Unlikely.

Families in China, with the 1 child policy

We don’t live in China.

I know several people who help care for people in their 90s

They are still working

I’m sure you do. I was one of those people once. What’s your point?

@SinisterBumFacedCat @Cologne4711 @The80sweregreat I have been there. Agree agree agree the current system is a travesty. I suspect that those who haven’t experienced a relative with dementia don’t realise the injustice of the funding system and don’t give it a moments thought.