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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think families are going to have to look after their own old people?

597 replies

ElderAve · 23/02/2020 16:05

It's not a judgement, the idea fills me with dread but how else are we supposed to pay for it? In a world where:

  • It's political suicide to suggest that people who have valuable homes, they are no longer living in should use that value to pay for care.
  • Everyone should be paid a proper living wage.
  • We have increasing numbers of people needing care.

For example, between DH and I we have 4 elderly parents, still very much fit and well, but realistically, that can't carry on forever. Those parents have 4 working offspring.

I don't know how many residents a care home worker can care for but let's say it's 12, which to provide 24hr care means 3 shifts, so the equivalent of 1 full person to care for our 4 parents. That means that the state needs to raise tax equivalent to 1 (living wage) salary from the four of us and that's before paying for schools, hospitals etc.

Obviously not everyone has elderly parents needing care but those will often be heavy users of the schools system and we still need to pay for all the other services.

I just can't see how the state can do it, if they keep promising not to take the elderly's homes, which is so emotive.

OP posts:
Lillygolightly · 24/02/2020 22:35

Ok having read and participated in this thread and also being currently in the position of living with a caring for a relative with Alzheimer’s I shall say the following;

I don’t have a problem with people paying for care, those who can afford it of course. I do have a BIG problem with the government choosing which illnesses get funded care and which don’t. Renal issues/cancer/diabetes: funded....Dememtia/Parkinson’s/Alzheimer’s: self funded. It’s just so unequal and unfair!

In my life I’ve had the pleasure of caring for a Mother with terminal cancer. Two Grandparents following a stroke and a Grandparent that died of pneumonia.

I currently care full time and live with MIL who has Alzheimer’s. Caring for MIL is far and away the hardest of all to care for. When I initially took on her care she could feed/dress/toilet herself, now however she can do none of those things. She is doubly incontinent and often smears her poop all over her room, she wakes in the night or early hours several times banging and slamming doors (so nobody sleeps), she is aggressive especially when you need to change her clothes, she hates this more than anything. In her position I can absolutely understand why, she becomes violent and aggressive as we are changing her clothes against her will, she feels as though she is being violated (and to a degree she is) because she lacks the basic understanding that she can not stay in soiled clothes and wear them for days or weeks on end (which she would happily do if there weren’t any intervention) and of course we feel absolutely awful to have to do something which makes her feel this way but, is ultimately for her own good. MIL’s life is desperately small, she can no longer socialise without becoming angry and aggressive, can’t even watch TV because that makes her angry and aggressive too (because the TV doesn’t answer her back). The only thing left for her enjoyment is food, and sometimes I’m lucky enough to be the nice lady who brings it to her. Other times I’m subject to many insults and anger and am told I do nothing for her and that I’m stupid and good for nothing don’t help etc etc. Logically I know this is the illness talking, but it does not stop the insults hurting especially when caring for her has come after much sacrifice in my own life.

I could not ever imagine nor would I ever want to live my MIL’s life. In all the ways I could pick to die (if I could pick) this would be the very last one. She has no choice, no dignity, no compassion or empathy, even for herself and cannot accept the love and care of those close to her, as for the most part she has no idea who we are. It truly is the saddest thing ever.

There is a guy I know, both his parents have dementia and are in care homes. During one particular honest and emotional conversation he told me how much he wished he’d rather they had cancer instead. The reason he wished this has nothing whatsoever to do with money!

I really do hope I am lucky enough to reach a swift end when my own time comes as I wouldn’t wish what I have seen on my very worst enemy!!!

yolofish · 24/02/2020 22:39

Oh lily Flowers arent enough. Can you get any respite at all, or change the situation?

SinisterBumFacedCat · 24/02/2020 22:57

Tatiana I will self fund as much as I can. The difference is I have witnessed more than enough years of what being in denial and care refusal that I know it has a detrimental effect on the health of the person with dementia and those around them. Also there are advanced directives, plans can be put in place should you get ill. My dads specific type of dementia is one so awful that Dignitas will help. I don’t want my children or more likely their partners and wives to feel duty bound to care for me and sacrifice their own lives and happiness to do so.

Alsohuman · 24/02/2020 23:23

Boomers are a narcissistic lot. Not many of them will have done much for their own parents

Why do people feel entitled to make such sweeping generalisations based on nothing? I’m a boomer, some of my contemporaries are still looking after their parents. Nobody in my social circle whose parents needed help and support have ducked it. Not one. And none of us expected them to pay in advance with child care.

Lillygolightly · 24/02/2020 23:25

@yolofish

Thanks for your concern, we do have respite care for one week every couple of months or so, it’s not a lot but it does help to recharge a little. I would certainly say by the time that each ones comes around it’s very much needed and appreciated.

GrumpyHoonMain · 24/02/2020 23:56

* Boomers are a narcissistic lot. Not many of them will have done much for their own parents*

As the elderly get healthier, the dementia crisis in the future will be fuelled by obese people in their 40s-60s. That’s why there is such a discussion about it at the moment and billionaires are throwing money at finding cure(s) and treatments. This is going to become a huge problem when younger people who have never owned a home or saved need care.

HeIenaDove · 25/02/2020 00:17
  • or been able to afford to save.
OutOntheTilez · 25/02/2020 02:57

I'm sure I impacted on their lives with shitty nappies and them raising me. It's just your turn to care for them.

Running the occasional errand, driving to doctor’s appointments, cooking a meal here and there, and visiting if living nearby, sure.

But lifting, bathing, changing, toileting and feeding a couple of lightweight toddlers when you’re 30 is much different from lifting, bathing, changing, toileting and feeding a couple of adults when you’re 60. Children will grow up and be able to do all of those things on their own. Your elderly parents never will again. Don’t even try to compare the two.

Utter selfishness to expect DC to do personal care 24/7. I would never wish that upon my own children. Am I to take them away from their own children and spouses when they have their own family, jobs, bills and stresses to worry about? What, are they or their spouses to quit their jobs to cater to me? How on earth will they fund their own retirements?

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 25/02/2020 07:48

It just shows the level of cluelessness about dementia, when people say that if they developed it, they’d go to Dignitas, or take a stash of pills.

People with most forms of dementia will typically not be aware that there’s anything much wrong with them - because they can never remember that they can’t remember anything - if that makes sense.

It’s much more usually relatives who recognise the first signs and push for a diagnosis - with the sufferer frequently refusing or unwilling to cooperate, because in their heads there’s nothing wrong with them.

My own mother often used to say that she’d ‘take an overdose’ if she ever got dementia (her elder sister had had it) but of course when the dreaded time came....

As for care homes, having looked at a great many over the years when choosing for FiL and my mother, I would say that contrary to popular belief, the most expensive are not necessarily the best, not at all.

I particularly remember one we looked at for my mother - extremely smart and stylish communal spaces - presumably to impress the relatives who were choosing - but the room they were offering - it was a converted hotel - was down a maze of narrow corridors, a tiny room with the original avocado bathroom, not that the colour would have put me off if the rest had been suitable. But it was totally unsuitable for someone at her stage of dementia and yet they’d have been perfectly willing to take her.

The place was owned/run by a consortium of doctors and to be frank it stank of cash registers ringing. It was one of the most expensive we looked at.

We saw others - cheaper - that were maybe a bit shabby round the edges, but with a warm and cosy atmosphere, and cheerful, friendly staff. Far more important than stylish decor, certainly when dementia is involved.

In the end we chose a purpose-built, dementia-only Abbeyfield home for my mother, at least partly because it was very close to me. It was by no means the most expensive, but was a very happy and well-run home and my mother was very well cared for for several years.

I would guess that probably around half the residents were not self funded, but they received exactly the same care, and there was no difference in the type of room they were given. Yes, people like my mother were subsidising the others, but we had no problem with that.

cptartapp · 25/02/2020 07:55

"Duty comes first".
No it doesn't. Your own well being comes first. You've been brainwashed. Dreadful parenting.

UYScuti · 25/02/2020 09:23

I agree that duty comes first but of course one's first duty is to one's self 🙂

Devlesko · 25/02/2020 11:19

cptartapp

Why do you think it's terrible parenting, it's our culture. We believe in duty to family first. We don't agree with childcare either, preferring to leave children with grannies, aunts and uncles.
We aren't all the same, and I'm not expecting others to agree, there's room for all sorts of people in the world.

So for us, duty comes first and of course it's expected you do your bit.
My parents were the generation before boomers, born during the war and they took care of all their older relatives. My mum would care during the day and dad would do all the heavy lifting and take over at night when he came home from work.
This wasn't just our culture it was all around us, it's what people did.

OldQueen1969 · 25/02/2020 11:28

So your Mum and Dad weren't reliant on her income to help cover the basic cost of living? Which is one of the main problems facing people who may want to care for elderly parents at home - that they cannot afford to live if one party has o give up a job to provide said care? And was their home big enough to accomodate the person / people being cared for?

Times are very different now - we can't just hark back to the past and say it worked then so why not now? No amount of backbone and determination to do the right thing will appease a mortgage provider......

Devlesko · 25/02/2020 11:32

Relatives took the front room, like the old Charlie and Chocolate factory. Mum wouldn't have worked, she took care of the family until dad came home.
She had no income she was an ill old woman, you got nothing then, no hand outs. Parents didn't get anything like carers allowance, doubt they'd have accepted as proud people.
Yes, times are different now, people don't see the duty of care the same, and won't financially struggle as they like their luxuries too much.

OldQueen1969 · 25/02/2020 12:02

Errm - I'm really not talking about love of luxuries, I'm talking about keeping the roof over the head of the person being cared for which may be at risk if the family income drops because the carer has to be on hand at all times. And I too am "too proud" - actually too terrified of the current benefit system to accept "hand outs" for the most part - the oh so generous Carers allowance amounting to approximately 260.00 per month was a different matter because it went straight back into the household to make up for my loss of income.

This is a bit like banging one's head against a brick wall because your very tight view of duty before all else doesn't take into account that times have changed and people already just about managing without luxuries can be utterly scuppered by the loss of a salary.

If massive debt is incurred, a family rendered homeless and the relative one has tried to care for ends up in a home anyway, surely it's bit daft?

ItIsWhatItIsInnit · 25/02/2020 12:06

But the cost of living and housing was way less back then, families could live on 1 working class salary. Not so much the case nowadays.

choli · 25/02/2020 12:18

Nobody in my social circle whose parents needed help and support have ducked it. Not one. And none of us expected them to pay in advance with child care.
Spot on, Alsohuman.
Unlike those who feel entitled to free childcare and an inheritance but feel no obligation to help with eldercare.

UYScuti · 25/02/2020 12:26

Eldercare and childcare are completely different things there is no equivalence
A generation or two ago 'help and support' was all you needed to do for your parents, in modern times with people being kept alive for decades beyond the point where they have capacity elder care goes far beyond just help and support
in many ways we are now keeping people alive because they are 'cash cows' for nursing homes and pharmaceutical companies.
The business model of the nursing home consists of liquidating over inflated property assets and funneling them into the coffers of the nursing home owners

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 25/02/2020 12:28

Also, if we’re talking a generation or so ago, people typically didn’t live as long. Yes, I know some did - I had a GGfather who didn’t die until I was 14 - he was well into his 90s and still had all his marbles - but he’d outlived both grandfathers by several years - both had died in their 60s.

isabellerossignol · 25/02/2020 12:58

We believe in duty to family first.

But from what you're posting, when you say duty to family you mean duty to parents, have I understood correctly?

Because I'd see my duty as being firstly towards my children, since I chose to have them. I wouldn't think it fair to them to force them to leave their school for example, and move miles from everywhere they know and everything they know, in order to look after their grandparents.

Or to force them to live in overcrowded accommodation, or in poverty, due to caring for elderly parents. I'd consider that to be not fulfilling my duty to my family.

TheCountessatHotelCortez · 25/02/2020 13:13

It’s all well and good the government saying we need to take on more of the caring for our relatives but in that case they better start paying either myself or my DH more to allow one of us to reduce hours enough to care for them. I work in healthcare and the majority of my patients manage at home with home carers, the patients who are in care homes are have mostly have dementia or Alzheimer’s.

yolofish · 25/02/2020 13:15

Frankly, I'm dreading the next phase. PIL are 90 and 82, live about 60 miles away from us and same distance from SIL. They've been sensible, downsized to a bungalow.

But when they start falling over who's going to be the one on call? SIL is single parent, admittedly to now adults, works full time. DH has cancer but still works full time, I work freelance from home and our DC are also adults. Guess who the burden will fall to?

And after 8 years of looking after my mum who lived a 2 minute walk away I'm not sure I've got the mental and physical energy to do it all again.

justasking111 · 25/02/2020 13:19

yolofish there`s the rub, when you are no spring chicken yourself how can you do it.

justasking111 · 25/02/2020 13:21

We have a neighbour 94 he has daily carers, have met one of his children 74 year old not in great health. The other abroad.