To wonder why looks are more of an issue to women than men?

[malificent7]

Of course nowadays there is certainly pressure on men to look good and have a gym body aswell as women, however why is it that age is more attractive in men rather than women.
For example, men can grow grey gracefully whilst with women wd are encouraged to dye hair.
Prob done to death but it feels worth another discussion.

The beard has grey in it, he was ecstatic.

^^

I see this where I work. All the young guys have beards to look older and distinguished. The older guys are now ditching beards!

I think there are several reasons, but principally men go for younger women because they can - i.e. (some) younger women are willing to accept an older, less physically attractive partner because they're attracted to his personality/sense of humour/status/intellect/wealth etc. Far fewer men are prepared to accept an unattractive woman because she has other good qualities.

We probably all have a physical ideal of what we'd like a sexual partner to look like, but women seem more willing to compromise on that for the sake of other factors. I'm not saying that men never compromise, but women give them less need to.

It’s a mix of patriarchy and competitiveness, women putting each other down is often rooted in jealousy or their own insecurity.

On a basic level we are competing for resources and anything that gives us an edge is helpful. Those resources aren’t just firewood they include a partner for many as a way to survive life, it’s all about pooling resources. Deep down I think we are far less sophisticated than we care to admit.

We are not some poor helpless gender, at some point we need to take responsibility for our own behaviour and stop blaming men

^

This. And we also need to confront ageism more. Slowly it's happening, but the women who should be in these positions of power I. E. In their 60's, are still of the generation of 'sit down, look pretty be quiet, confrontation is seen as rudeness' which is very hard to overcome.

It's socialization in a patriarchal society.

This ^ in spades

Why is there a never ending stream of young women apparently wanting to be impregnated by Mick Jagger? no amount of money would make it appealing to me.

Maybe they do just genuinely fall romantically in love with each other (and it's just that Mick or Rod have a much better personality than Barry who runs the bingo hall), but IF it is as we all assume then it is a simple trade-off. Rather than them wanting to be impregnated (which they could easily do if they went to any pub or night club, if that was their only motivation), they see youthful beauty and, as a female, the ability to provide him with proof of his virility offspring as what they have to offer in return for the financial security and luxurious/high-profile lifestyle that his money can provide.

If romance and attraction is what you value most highly (as most of us do), you wouldn't be interested, but if you take a more pragmatic approach to your future financial security - and you maybe enjoy being in the public eye as well - you may consider that a higher priority and worth the deal in living with a man whom you might not otherwise have chosen.

Some of them might even be more calculated than that. Plenty of folk persist with high-stress jobs that they hate for 30 years, in the hope of retiring early and enjoying 30+ years of fine living and freedom on a nice pension. It makes sense, really, that, if you're putting up with a husband largely because of his money, you'd choose somebody 30-40 years older than you for obvious reasons....

It's more common that way around, but the reverse does happen. Look at women like Joan Collins and Barbara Windsor.

I don't think it's just as simple as 'the patriarchy', though. Whatever the driving force behind it is, I think women tend to appreciate beauty and style much more than men do. Women enjoy giving and receiving flowers to/from each other, dressing and accessorising fashionably even in all-female environments, choosing co-ordinating soft furnishings and wallpaper etc in a way that most men simply couldn't care less (and often won't even notice) - none of that is being demanded by 'the patriarchy'. That would be like blaming 'the matriarchy' for so many men's obsession with football or cycling.

It's more common that way around, but the reverse does happen. Look at women like Joan Collins and Barbara Windsor.

Joan Collins and Barbara Windsor are attractive women who have 'looked after themselves' though. I can't think of any examples of a young man who's with an older woman who was never attractive in the first place or who has 'let herself go', but there are plenty of reverse examples, and you don't even have to go in to the realms of celebrity to find them.

I don't think it's just as simple as 'the patriarchy', though. Whatever the driving force behind it is, I think women tend to appreciate beauty and style much more than men do. Women enjoy giving and receiving flowers to/from each other, dressing and accessorising fashionably even in all-female environments, choosing co-ordinating soft furnishings and wallpaper etc in a way that most men simply couldn't care less (and often won't even notice) - none of that is being demanded by 'the patriarchy'. That would be like blaming 'the matriarchy' for so many men's obsession with football or cycling.

Maybe they do, but why? If women do genuinely enjoy those things, why is that? Is it something innate?

And isn't it strange that the things women apparently like, coincide with the things the a patriarchal society says they should like?

I love fashion & worked in it for a number of years, women definitely don't always dress for men & actually they were the spaces I felt very comfortable in as I was surrounded by women & women held very senior jobs.

Half the things I wear my dh thinks aren't very attractive eg oversized clothes or clumpy shoes, so there is definitely an element of not caring about men's opinions on that front.

I have never valued my looks so it’s not something I think about too often. I was raised by my Grandparents who unfortunately only focused on my faults most of the time - so if anything I’m more concerned about being a useful person than an attractive one (that comes with its own downfalls it wasn’t until last year I decided to stop being such a people pleaser that my own happiness was always bottom of the list!).

In my relationship DH is more concerned with how he is aging than I am. I’m not overweight but not slim either, just sort of middling really and my post pregnancy body is weirdly the happiest shape I’ve been in. When I was young I was super slim, but was always told I was too skinny, then I got very overweight in my early 20’s (comfort eating my way through a shite relationship) and it was only after having my twins I decided to actively try and live a healthier lifestyle. I have saggy boobs and a huge c-section scar with a pouch and I’m proud of it, my body tells the story of what I achieved and I hope to instil this in my DD (minus the horrible self esteem issues!) as she grows up.

DH has always had weak teeth and is constantly worrying about losing them before he hits 40. It plays on his mind a lot.

In a general sense I think that it’s a complex issue that is quite an individual choice. For instance my MIL has always been slim and attractive - she always hated herself for being plain. When she hit 50 she started doing all the things she didn’t have the courage to do as a younger woman. She has a lot of very colourful tattoos, piercings (not loads but a few) and she loves dying her hair different colours. She isn’t doing it because of societal pressures it’s just something she enjoys. But to anybody who sees her in the street and doesn’t know her they might think she’s trying too hard to appear youthful I suppose? So it’s hard to separate an individuals reasons for how they choose to look and how others would perceive and judge another’s looks against their own biases. (I hope that makes some sense - coffee isn’t kicking in today!).

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll I completely understand why a women who had no prospects & was trapped in poverty would chose a wealthier spouse but I can't get my head around marrying Harvey Weinstein for example because I want to live in a mansion & have a wardrobe filled with Dior.

It's socialization in a patriarchal society

Bullshit. Every woman I know, inc myself, can think for ourselves, we can take responsibility for our own behaviour. Some wear make up, some don’t. Each to their own, the only thing that unites us is we don’t play the feeble brained woman who blames society and men for our actions.

It really pisses me off when women post “it’s not our fault we do this, it’s men’s, we are too stupid to know better or change ir”

Seriously. Stand up and be counted,

And women’s value doesn’t fade with their looks. Not if you live a life with something else to offer. Be it career, friendship, love, parenting, volunteering, whatever. Our value doesn’t fade with our looks. It only does that if you only value women or yourself for your looks.

Again, stand up and be counted. The only person responsible for how we behave is us.

I refuse to be lumped in with women who act feeble, and accuse other women of the same frailty, the same lack of personal responsibility, the same lack of being unable to think for themselves.

I’m not that woman, my daughter is not that woman, and none of my friends or colleagues are that woman, we have plenty to offer thank you and our looks are our choice how to present ourselves and our value is more than how we present.

If the posters saying it’s all men’s fault, then that’s the life you choose to live, the views you chose to have, but count me and mine out, you don’t speak for us.

It's really not bullshit Bluntness
Socialization runs deep...everyone's views are influenced by something. We don't make decisions in a vacuum. It's also not about proportioning blame either. It's about acknowledging that socialization happens and understanding how this impacts our choices and decisions. it helps if we're all aware of our unconscious biases.

The fact is we live in a patriarchal society, in a world designed for men by men. Many of these societal norms are being challenged but they haven't been eradicated yet.

I can highly recommend the book Invisible Women - it doesn't blame men but provides a very good explanation.

I don’t agree with you sue ellen. I just need to look around me at the woman who are valued for things other than their looks. Who dress as they please, who achieve.

It may be valid in your world, and I step back and apologise for saying bulkshit, but it’s not valid in mine.

Myself, and every woman I know, is valued for more than her looks. Every single one presents differently, each has a choice, from make up, no make up, dyeing or grey, shaving their legs or not, dresses or doc martins, their choice, they own it.

It is not the nineteen fifties in the world I inhabit.

It is not the nineteen fifties in the world I inhabit.

I live in the same world as you do. And I am grateful!

Bluntness It's not a world I operate in either. I , and the women I know, are valued for far more than our looks but my research shows that the patriarchy is alive and well. Most of my research focuses on womens career development but it clearly shows that women have a long way to go and, as a class, are still heavily influenced by patriarchal societal norms.

With regards to looks...just look at how differently male and female politicians are discussed in the media. Female politicians nearly always have their outfit discussed. Women are judged by how they look and men are judged by what they achieve....not exclusively but it still does happen.

Totally agree Sue. No one is saying we’re mindless idiots running around doing what men say. But we’re not raised in a vacuum either.

For those saying the patriarchy plays no part, do you really believe a woman raised say in the middle of nowhere, where she’s given no TV, magazines, social media etc, would still shave her legs, yearn to paint her face and have some unknown desire to cut open her chest and fill in with bags silicone?

You’re being naive to think society plays no role in how we develop.

Of course it’s still a patriarchal society in parts, but it’s not for our attractiveness, how we judge other women, or how we present, that’s a personal choice. And the world has moved on, women are valued for way more than their looks now, unless their looks is all they offer.

but the women who should be in these positions of power I. E. In their 60's, are still of the generation of 'sit down, look pretty be quiet, confrontation is seen as rudeness' which is very hard to overcome

We’re absolutely not! We’re 1970s feminists. Does anyone seriously think you’ve all got (in theory) equal pay, maternity pay, maternity leave, decent childcare, anti sexism discrimination, the right to have your own bank account, credit card and mortgage because we all “sat down, looked pretty and kept quiet”? We raged and fought for those things and some of us (who aren’t completely worn out with it all) are still raging and fighting.

Being grey haired and unbotoxed is so liberating in avoiding the male gaze. I see that as another stage in my feminist journey which is over 40 years in now.

And the world has moved on, women are valued for way more than their looks now, unless their looks is all they offer

Yes we have moved on but not far enough. This isn't happening across the board. I've seen research recently about how 'attractiveness' plays a part in recruitment. Women were judged more harshly on what they wore and whether they wore make up or not.
just because it's not happening in your group of friends it doesn't mean it isn't happening at all.

I agree look at the Dracula guy who everyone (including me tbh) is swooning over, even my dd and her mates who are teenagers. He is in his fifties. Swap this with a 50 odd year old actress and she would not get the same reaction.

I disagree. There are quite a few actresses in their 40s and 50s who men find very attractive - Gillian Anderson, Halle Berry, Julianne Moore - (all in their 50s) to name but 3.

Besides, actors aren't the real world. Look around at the men and women in their 40s and 50s you see in your everyday life. If your experience is anything like mine or that of others on this board, it's the women who age much better than the men, whatever the latter like to tell themselves.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll I completely understand why a women who had no prospects & was trapped in poverty would chose a wealthier spouse but I can't get my head around marrying Harvey Weinstein for example because I want to live in a mansion & have a wardrobe filled with Dior.

It makes you shudder at the very thought of it, doesn't it?! Then again, I don't know them personally, but I'm guessing that the likes of Rod Stewart and Mick Jagger aren't quite in the same league of odium to live with.

Some people (probably a slightly higher proportion in the world of showbiz) are very superficial and will do anything for fame - think of Rebecca Loos and her porcine pal not envy.

Then again, Bruce Forsyth's wife was a beauty queen, so obviously a lot younger than him and already in the spotlight herself, and they appeared to have a sincere happy marriage, as much as you can tell as an outsider. Also, there were 20 years between Paul Daniels and Debbie McGee, and I don't think anybody doubts that they were genuinely in love throughout.

For those saying the patriarchy plays no part, do you really believe a woman raised say in the middle of nowhere, where she’s given no TV, magazines, social media etc, would still shave her legs, yearn to paint her face and have some unknown desire to cut open her chest and fill in with bags silicone?

that has nothing to do with patriarchy though. Otherwise men would just walk around ungroomed, surgery free, in potato bags.

Of all the people in my team, I am the one who spends the least - by miles - on clothes and shoes! And I happen to be the only female. I still look good though

I'm guessing that the likes of Rod Stewart and Mick Jagger aren't quite in the same league of odium to live with

I bet they’re worse, they’ve got egos the size of a small planet.

I know this deep diwn and yet as my looks fade i do mourn it...like im loosing some sort of currency in the world.

Maybe its this that's the problem. Its how some people see it personally. Yes I notice my age when I look in the mirror, do I feel like the above, no. I do the best I can with what I've got which certainly ain't perfect but would I change it no why because if I did I wouldn't look like me any more and that would be worse I'd rather have the lines, the grey. I tbink I'd look daft with dyed hair botox extra make up etc. Never did it before not starting now.