To wonder why looks are more of an issue to women than men?

[malificent7]

Of course nowadays there is certainly pressure on men to look good and have a gym body aswell as women, however why is it that age is more attractive in men rather than women.
For example, men can grow grey gracefully whilst with women wd are encouraged to dye hair.
Prob done to death but it feels worth another discussion.

I think women look better as they age, not men.

You only have to spend 10 minutes on the relationships board to see how many women have been abandoned by their shallow husbands in favour of a younger model to realise that it's no wonder women feel under pressure to stay looking young and beautiful. I think some men feel they are entitled to attain a young beautiful woman, regardless of how they themselves are aging and are no oil painting - a lot of men seem to have less awareness of their own flaws and imperfections than women do, and as a result behave in accordance with that delusion, ultimately causing some women to feel insecure about their appearance and aging body.

Its comes down to the patriachy. Which also negatively affects men as well.

Men are valued on their financial stability (on the whole) only a man who has money and/or power can grow old gracefully. Not many younger women are queuing up for Geoff, aged 50, who lives down the road in a private rented flat, who also has a beer gut, gone grey and earns 18k per year.

Marriages seen as 'good' were based on the man being a good financial bet and the women being someone these men can show off.
Got back years and womens looks were what would help 'catch a good marriage prospect'. A mans money and power is what would get him 'a good marriage prospect' to provide cute kids and run the house while still looking good.

You see it changing somewhat now. As more and more women become career focused and successful, more and more are attracting attractive but cocklodging types.

The main difference is that often these women arent looking to have kids (dont want them or already have them) and so these men are cocklodger as they arent raising the kids.

I see it all the time as I work with lots of high earning women.

Becoming invisible with age has been really liberating for me. No unwanted sexual attention, no leering, having my face spoken to instead of my tits, it’s empowering.

I have found this. It's done wonders for my career.

Yes, it did for mine too.

Dp and I debate this quite often. He seems to have an inbuilt base level of self esteem about his appearance whereas it's taken me decades to achieve that.

I argue that partly for women its hundreds of years of society expecting us to use our appearance as currency and a way to succeed. Not to mention that we were taught as a sex that we weren't allowed to decide how we wanted to look but that we had to adhere to autonomous standards set often by men.

However DP and I do agree that at a grass roots level it is now women who enforce it on other women. This is apparent on MN for every "Love yourself post" there is an alternate one judging another woman for something small and insignificant, female society seems reluctant to let go of a hierarchical system that we define ourselves by. (I'm talking macrocosmically here obviously...individuals can be as enlightened as they choose)

On the flip side there is just as much vitriol thrown at women who choose to Express themselves through appearance, there is nothing wrong with choosing to enjoy make up and clothes for yourself , because you enjoy it and perhaps it taps into your creative side.

I do think a lot is steeped in history and has some links back to a more Male oppressive time but I dont believe it's true that Men are enforcing it now, I do think women are the hardest for enforcing autonomous hierarchies based on looks (I am including inverted hierarchies where it is frowned upon to car about your appearance).

Nowadays?

Do you know any history at all?

I'm prepared to get a slating about this, but I think it's reductive to blame it entirely on the patriarchy when good old biology and nature play their parts too.

It's entirely normal in nature of have one sex that has visual appeal and one that's plainer.

Peacock vs peahen.
Stag vs hind.
Lion vs lioness.

The features aren't just about beauty - sexual dimorphism usually means a difference in size and strength too (not always in favour of the males either). Not just in physical characteristics either, but in behaviour - male bower birds craft beautiful collections of tat to impress females etc All behaviours/appearances are essentially having one sex make a bid for the other one to choose them, or allow them to mate.

There are also group behaviours - in primitive human groupings, females would be the ones moved between tribes. In elephants, it's a matriarchal society.

On top of that we've built a societal structure that takes those tendencies to extremes, and adds the clusterfuck of crap that is marketing.

I think it's important to accept and understand the place of biology in this, because denying that it's part of the picture reduces the chance of addressing the issue.

Because the patriarchy has done a fucking amazing job putting women in their place, which is basically on display to be looked at, critiqued and commented on. I’m quite astounded how any woman would be unaware of this, given that she will have been trained from birth to bitch about, criticise and compete with other women for the attention of men.

Why do you think there are such vicious cliches about the way lesbians look? It’s because we don’t want or need to attract the attention of men so we don’t play silly patriarchal beauty games, men as a class are hostile to us so we get bad mouthed, and mainly because we love women, and realise they look fine and beautiful as they are.

I think a lot of men are self conscious about other things such as balding and there are definitely many men who dye their hair well into old age... There’s also a pressure on them to keep fit nowadays that didn’t used to really exist. I do think the pressures on a woman are stronger but they definitely exist with men too.

It’s not just about marriage though, many of my female friends who work on short term contracts are aware that there is a sell-by-date on this type of work and that at some point you are perceived as “too old”. And while no one is quite clear on what that age is, it is generally accepted that it’s 10-15 years earlier than for men. Looking young, or as young as possible, for them, is driven by the work place.

Patriarchy. Obviously.

And, I’m perfectly fine with my slightly saggy post-baby body. I look fine. If I did want a man I’m sure I’d find plenty who agree with me, because honestly, most aren’t really that fussed. It’s a fact that every single woman and girl of any age, regardless of whether she’s a 5ft8 blond haired blue eyed beauty or not, will get far more male attention than she ever wants, and plenty that she definitely doesn’t.

From an evolutionary perspective its to do with fertility. Woman who look young and healthy are perceived to be fertile so men are attracted to them when looking for a mate. Men can still be fertile when much older so it's not so important for women to find a young man.

@SayNoToCarrots that’s increasingly becoming the norm though. It’s not longer normal to marry someone who isn’t your socioeconomic equal, relative looks are becoming increasingly unimportant in marriage decisions and many women are realising that they can’t expect a higher earning husband because they look nice and so are looking within their own economic class for a partner.

But, as PPs have said, if a woman is in the public eye or in a job where appearance matters, she’d better stay looking young and attractive or she’ll be seen as past it and out the door, where as men are seen to look distinguished if they still look half way decent as they age. For women age is a sign of being used up, for men age is a sign of experience, respectability, reliability and knowledge.

I never bothered dyeing my hair, I like it silver - it denotes experience and wisdom which was useful as a doctor in that patients trusted me more readily!
I’ve never worn makeup or given a shit about fashion, I’ve always been flat chested, and distinctly average in looks.
But that didn’t stop me having a great career and an absolutely wonderful DH. We loved each other to bits, right up to his death.
You can either surrender to the patriarchy, fight it or ignore it. It’s your own choice.

"Dp and I debate this quite often. He seems to have an inbuilt base level of self esteem about his appearance whereas it's taken me decades to achieve that"

As well as self esteem it's entitlement. Men are entitled to inhabit the world, go were they want, do what they want and think regardless of how they are or look, they are entitled to sex with attractive women.

The amount of unwanted sexual attention/harassment that my DD (24) gets from men 40-70, even when they are with their partner is unbelievable.

There were early times and tribes were women would be part of the government and life was more equal. This was undone by the patriarchy. The whole creation of women being chattel was created by the patriarchy. Likewise they cut us out of religion, employment and governance. It didn't just happen. The whole lie about Mary Magdalen being a prostitute wasn't an accident. They couldn't have a woman being chosen on her merits and being valued just for what she brought to the table.

To put it bluntly: women have a “shelf life” if they want children. Men can usually keep going and going (look at mick jagger etc!)

I too kept myself “groomed” until I was married, waxed my bits n all that jazz - now I don’t give as much of a shit. I’ve not let myself go but I don’t make as much effort any more. I’m lucky my dh still fancies me but he’s always been one of those men who likes the natural look so that works for me!

I think it's down to socialisation. In the natural world amongst other animals it's largely male animals who have to appear fit and fertile. In zoology terms females provide a larger energy investment in rearing young so can afford to be fussy about their partners, whereas males provide little effort and energy. This has led to the evolution of things such as antlers on stags and large tails on male peacocks etc, which prove their fitness.

I always find it strange that we went the other way somehow.

Google 'Fisher's Runaway Selection' and 'Zhavi's Handicap Principle'.

All animal related but we're not that different really

*many of my female friends who work on short term contracts are aware that there is a sell-by-date on this type of work and that at some point you are perceived as “too old”

I never reached that age so it must be pretty high! I got my last contract when I was 62 in preference to two younger women. I was perceived as a highly experienced safe pair of hands who wasn’t going to have childcare issues or get pregnant. Had I wished I could easily have carried on working in that way until I was 70.

It's entirely normal in nature of have one sex that has visual appeal and one that's plainer

Peacock vs peahen
Stag vs hind
Lion vs lioness

Do you not see the connection there? It’s pretty much always the male that is meant to look more appealing to attract a mate. We have it the wrong way round.

Patriarchy my bum.