To wonder why looks are more of an issue to women than men?

[malificent7]

Of course nowadays there is certainly pressure on men to look good and have a gym body aswell as women, however why is it that age is more attractive in men rather than women.
For example, men can grow grey gracefully whilst with women wd are encouraged to dye hair.
Prob done to death but it feels worth another discussion.

Op, my husband just grew a beard as he’s sick of people thinking he’s younger than he is and wants more gravitas (in a very senior job where most people he deals with are 55 plus)

The beard has grey in it, he was ecstatic.

I was totally dumbstruck at how the different mentality.

Yes, I was a looker, I am now NOT a looker anymore and it’s quite hard to deal with.

Although I now understand why DH is so dismissive of Botox and the likes !

From an evolutionary perspective its to do with fertility. Woman who look young and healthy are perceived to be fertile so men are attracted to them when looking for a mate. Men can still be fertile when much older so it's not so important for women to find a young man

That really doesn’t make much sense seeing as male fertility also declines as does the health of the sperm which increases risks of disabilities. Far better to have children with a fit young man.

There are certain evolutionary factors at play. The main one is that women become infertile with age, while mrn theoretically never do. It's therefore "in his interest", in terms of having the most children, for a man to favour a younger partner. An older man, however, is probably still fertile, and as long as he's still fit and healthy, his extra life experience is helpful. That's why, biologically, women's attractiveness is perceived to drop off by middle age while for men it lasts a lot longer, until an age where they start to get infirm.

Almost ironically, the fact that humans are at least mostly monogamous by nature and fathers often take part in childcare makes this more of a thing. If fatherhood was just a case of sex and then nothing, there'd be no cost to men finding women of any age attractive, even if they were coming to the end of their reproductive time. Instead, because men naturally invest in their partner and offspring, it makes best evolutionary sense to strongly prefer a younger woman likely to have more children, and healthier children, too.

The human trend towards monogamy also leads to another thing that wouldn't be a big deal otherwise - female-female competition. Because people tend to have few partners compared to other animals, there's a strong incentive for women to appear a better option as a partner than the other women around her, so she can snag the best male. This applies just as much to men, too - male-male competition is just as much of a thing, evolutionarily.

Which maybe all sounds a bit bleak, but it's counteracted in part by some other more savoury processes, mainly pair-bonding, mutual altruism, group cohesion and the fact that it's often evolutionarily more beneficial for fathers and mothers to stick together long after the time for having more children is past so that they can help their grandkids do well.

Anyway, that's just the evolutionary background and isn't really applicable to modern society, or shouldn't be. Back on planet earth...

I think women can grow old gracefully; plenty of older women who don't dye their greys away, don't hide their wrinkles and don't obsess about weight or looking fit, and they still look lovely. They also still all have their have their husbands... Though frankly if a man left a partner for the crime of getting old, well, he's an arse and the woman should see his departure as a win.

I think it comes down to self confidence; if you're not bothered about how other people see you, you won't feel pressured into hiding the signs of aging and you'll naturally grow old gracefully.

The fact is we live in a patriarchal society which has been designed for men by men. Not all of this was intentional but the impact is huge.

Lillith, Adams first wife was a wild woman and took on lovers as she saw fit.

According to the Alphabet of Ben Sira, Lilith was Adam’s first wife but the couple fought all the time. They didn’t see eye-to-eye on matters of sex because Adam always wanted to be on top while Lilith also wanted a turn in the dominant sexual position. When they could not agree, Lilith decided to leave Adam. She uttered God’s name and flew into the air, leaving Adam alone in the Garden of Eden. God sent three angels after her and commanded them to bring her back to her husband by force if she would not come willingly. But when the angels found her by the Red Sea they were unable to convince her to return and could not force her to obey them.

So god sent Eve to be Adams mate, What results is a story about Lilith, an assertive wife who rebelled against God and husband, was replaced by another woman, and was demonized in Jewish folklore.

So several thousand years ago we saw the womans behaviour divided, those that are wild women who are deviants and those that are quiet, submissive are revered. The madonna and whore complex was born. Those strong women whom did not conform to patriarchal ideals were demonised, the hag, the crone, the witch, they were murdered, ostracised and had their metaphorical teeth kicked out, their nails ripped off. All the while docile, quiet, demure, submissive traits were peddle stooled.

Patriarchy has a lot to answer for, the downfall of equality for men and women. Women are still seen as chattle, belonging to men. The amount of male entitlement, male violence and misogyny in the world is utterly breathtaking. There is a war on women, it has been going on for thousands of years.

Hair dyeing is an interesting one, rows and rows of the stuff in supermarkets, most women do dye their hair rather than go grey. Women who are in their 40s and 50s that are choosing not to follow the line of hair dye are similar to the bra burners in the late 1960's. People commented on my transition from dyed hair to undyed grey, they found it strange, my own mum who really was a bra burner and a staunch feminist, thought it was odd!

Anyhoo, i will step down from my soap box..

The evaluation arguement is such patriarchal bollocks. It completely ignores men’s sperm quality declining with age and erectile dysfunction which high numbers of older men get.

There’s this idea that women aren’t looking for the best quality male to procreate with, only men are allowed to care about that, despite it being completely opposite everywhere else in nature.

I disagree the women I work and socialise look a lot better than the men. Many who are overweight and badly dressed these are mostly British and Irish. Though Scandinavian men tend to age very well.

I thought older fathers were linked to genetic mutations & autism? I don't really get the notion that just because a 70 yr old man has sperm he's still fertile.

In all honesty I don’t think this is the case for the majority of people. I think compatibility with another person ignites attraction more than anything else. The media targets women because we are more vulnerable as our bodies are the ones most likely to change after childbirth etc. The reality is that I know so many women who have got better with age, wiser and much more confident which is attractive in itself. The media and the beauty industry wants people to be insecure and believe that men want a very specific type of woman but it’s not true! Variety is the spice of life ;)

Declines in sperm quality are small enough that they are counteracted by the increased experience and social rank that comes with aging in men. Of course there is an end to this - by the time a man is becoming infirm or getting etectile dysfunction, he's no longer a good catch, evolutionarily speaking, in just the same way that a post-menopausal woman isn't, it's just that this happens at a later age with men than with women.

There's also just as much male-male competition in humans as there is female-female competition. In a largely monogamous system, both sexes are incentivised to focus on finding the best possible partner.

I don't think there's any point denying the contribution our evolutionary history has had on society, and personally I find it fascinating, but I don't think it should rule society in the least. Evolutionary history says nothing at all about the value of the sexes and shouldn't affect anything in terms of choice of job candidates, the criminal justice system, or any other aspect of society or relationships.

Our evolutionary history isn't a problem, problems only arise when people, consciously or unconsciously, use it as justification for treating people unequally.

AngelsSins, i am in agreement with your evolution bollocks thoughts. It is something that is not really talked about, just look at how men (historicly as well as now) react to not being able to produce offspring, it is ALLWAYS the womans fault. Men do not like the idea of being demasculinized. The have internalised fertility as a symbol of their masculinity and do not like it when this is bought into question. The amount of posts about male partners not wanting to under go a vasectomy, but fully support their female partner to have a more risky operation to sterilise as a means to contraception.

It all really fucks me off.

I think it's a rare man who actually looks good as he grows older. Some do, but most just look older. I think it's mostly a myth that men look better as they age.

I agree with this & don't really understand where the belief comes from. Also if someone is genuinely beautiful then they are still beautiful when they are older.
Youth is attractive because it makes people look better overall, it doesn't make people beautiful though.

I don’t think we can blame men, or the “patriarchy”, for this, it’s prevalent even in matriarchal societies.

Women are who do this to themselves, who want to compete with other women, who want to judge other women, who want to look a certain way, whatever that is.

We are not some poor helpless gender, at some point we need to take responsibility for our own behaviour and stop blaming men,

OMG thank you

We are not some poor helpless gender, at some point we need to take responsibility for our own behaviour and stop blaming men

that is so refreshing to read something like this. I am so bored to be looked at or described as "inferior" in all these threads because I happen to be female.

I'm another one who is often frustrated at the way women are portrayed as vulnerable and in need of special help just to get by, most often by those who claim to be supporting women!

But that's a bit off topic, sorry

@Bluntness100 has a point, Why is there a never ending stream of young women apparently wanting to be impregnated by Mick Jagger? no amount of money would make it appealing to me.

If it was all patriarchy, why do some many women put other women down over their looks (I include fashion sense, hair style etc in that)? Whether it's gossip magazines or MN threads, there are always women slating women over their appearance - whether celebs or day-to-day.

I'm not saying patriarchy isn't involved, of course it is, but it's too simplistic to lay it all at that.

why is it that age is more attractive in men rather than women.
I don't think it is. Older women look far better than men of the same age in most cases.

Agree, and we will always be the weaker sex until we are able to take responsibilities for our own actions.

Of course men are involved, but they are not to blame. This is us. We need to own it, and then do something about it. Not just say “it’s not our fault, or it’s not our choice, depending on your view point, it’s men they make us do it because we can’t think for ourselves and do as we are told”

If I want to dye my hair, wear make up, go to the gym, wear nice clothes, I do it because that’s my choice. It’s always utterly and ultimately my choice.

As an aside, i find the taking on the husbands name an interesting notion and the children born into that name. As well as couples in the modern day whom do not marry, but the children are generally named after the father. Now only a woman can be sure that the child she gives birth to is hers, a man can never be sure 100% that the child is his (apart from the modern dna tests). To me it follows that actually the children 'should' take on the mothers name for that very reason. The family line is more likely to accurate if this was so. But due to women and children belonging to the men it is the fathers line that is documented.

only to women who make it an issue. So many on here won't go out unless slapped-up, nails plastic coated etc etc. There's no law on this.

you don't want your online tributes to say 'beautiful' because that is no achievement and is actually quite insulting. And it is generally women who refer to others in that way.

If it was all patriarchy, why do some many women put other women down over their looks (I include fashion sense, hair style etc in that)? Whether it's gossip magazines or MN threads, there are always women slating women over their appearance - whether celebs or day-to-day.

I'm not saying patriarchy isn't involved, of course it is, but it's too simplistic to lay it all at that

It's socialization in a patriarchal society.

I think your opinion is outdated OP,

Men are just as worried about looks as women, both middle aged men (my age) and younger ones (the Love Island generation, massive pressure on men to be buff and fit and hairless), Middle aged men HATE going aft or bald. Yes they are not worried about going grey, but that is because going grey is not as bad as going bald.

Honestly, things have really changed in last 10-20 years in this respect. Instead of women caring less about their appearance, they care more, and men are catching up....

Kundalinirising, women either have their father's name, or their husbands. It's a man either way.

I have never seen this as an issue, I use my maiden name and married name interchangeably. As do many women I know. We are free to do so (thankfully). I even use my first name and middle name as my "full name" when I can get away with it

Women have traditionally been valued for their looks and not a lot else. When your looks fade your 'value' as a woman fades.
Can't see it changing anytime soon unfortunately.