To be terrified by the Australian rugby coach setting his family on fire?

[SeasonallySnowyPeasant]

In brief: earlier today an Australian ex-rugby player was in the car with his wife and their three children, poured petrol over her and set her alight. She, he and the children all died. The parents were ending their marriage and disputing custody over the children.

It’s absolutely horrific and I just wonder why there seem to be no depths to which some men - and it almost always is men - will sink when it comes to asserting their dominance over women and children. Throwing acid over them seems to be the newest ‘thing’ over the past 3 years. Assault, rape, stalking, harassment, murder are so common as to be un-newsworthy.

It scares me. My exH was abusive and I have a non-molestation order to prevent him from continuing the abuse. At the back of my mind I worry about him taking something I do/say as pushing him too far and being seriously hurt or killed. What if he decides one day to kill our DC?

Why won’t men sort their lives out and put an end to this horrific violence?

Angels See - works both ways doesn't it? Well done.

@MickCarter and others on this thread who have posted about their experiences of abuse, I’m sorry that it happened to you. Thanks for sharing.

Even if you think you only know decent men, it doesn’t mean you actually do, so having a conversation about what happened, how awful it is and what are the warning signs that you’d look for in someone is helpful because it challenges the underlying narrative that these things happen, there’s naff all we can do about it so nothing needs to change. If someone then says, ‘well, he was obviously really struggling with the prospect of losing his kids and just snapped’ then you can challenge that. ‘Just snapped’ might mean asking your wife to stop the car and getting out to walk the rest of the way home and call a mate to have a cry. It doesn’t mean getting a bottle of petrol ready, packing it in your stuff and then getting an opportunity in to use it to set your family on fire. That’s pure evil, not ‘snapping’. Start a conversation. You might be surprised by your friends’ responses.

That undercurrent isn't there. I don't need people to post 'not all men' to know that they're talking about men as a sex class.I don't need them to post 'a small percentage of women do this too' to know that the facts show in the majority of cases, it's a problem with male violence. I don't even need them to post that they have male partners and sons (as most of them do).
But that's because I'm looking at the problem and the facts - not wondering if someone else is looking for an 'undercurrent' or worrying about a man's feelings being hurt because he doesn't like facts.
I'd be ashamed if my DH or my DS or my DBs or my nephews came on a thread like this to cry 'not all men' but they wouldn't because they're not undermined by acknowledging facts. In fact, some of them are working on education programmes to help break cycles of violence and another is working on how the legal establishment fails women. They can see the problem and they can try to work on the solutions rather than trying to find excuses.

We need to embed feminist led healthy relationships with right through education, health, government and police. If children will ever be safe we need CHANGE

See, people don't like it when some men get defensive but can you blame them when women put out poisonous shit like that?

So it’s ok for some men to get defensive because women “put out poisonous crap“ (I assume you mean all women because you were careful to say some men, but not some women). But it’s not OK for women to get angry about male violence when it’s literally killing us? Got it, women’s words are worse than men’s actions.

Healthy relationships education even, missed a word

See - works both ways doesn't it? Well done

Except it doesn’t, as your post proved.

Hack But despite you and others keep going on about that, not one person, as far as I can see, has suggested otherwise - that men are fair more likely to commit violence (they are also, statistically, far more likely to be the victim of violence, too).

So why are people keep going on about that fact, which no one has disputed, including the men on the thread, rather than actually trying to move the discussion into WHAT THE SOLUTION IS beyond saying a few words and hoping it will get through to violent men?

Seriously does anyone believe that a few words of condemnation will stop cunts being cunts?

But it’s not OK for women to get angry about male violence when it’s literally killing us?

And I said that where? I'll wait.

Honestly I think a national education campaign embedded in every public service is part of it. Another is a bit of female rage at the poor sentences and responses. Every time there is a suspended sentence widely publicised we need to flood media back. Women need to unite and fight back!

But NAMALT is not an excuse, and no one uses it as such. It's the measured person's response to the discussion of men as one homogeneous group where the terrible actions of a few somehow reflect the entire group. It would be the same regardless of the classification of individual.

I asked when men will sort their lives out and stop this from happening because it’s overwhelmingly men perpetrating violence and misogyny. It’s not women’s job to come up with solutions to help the big bad men not to be abusive. It’s not abusive men who will lead this change. It’s all men, in various capacities, who will do it. Some by sorting their own lives out and most by making it socially unacceptable to hold and act on hateful views about women.

In a professional sense without going into too much detail, when police won't help women we use housing restrictions, charities and whatever it takes to help when we can

Nobody is denying that the vast majority of violence against women and families is perpetrated by men

One poster on here most certainly was denying that. There is a real agenda in MRA circles to obscure the existence of sex-based violence and to stop women talking about it. Women like Karen Ingala Smith from Counting Dead Women and Jean Hatchett who raises money for victims of domestic violence regularly get death threats for their work. This thread is an object-lesson in how far that movement to shut women up has come in the last year or so. The lying about statistics, the derailing, and the framing of men's reputations as the ultimate victims of other men's violence is of a scale I've not seen on here when the subject has been discussed in the past. And this is on a forum predominantly used by women.

ShatnersWig I think that men can help. For example, if you are out with your mates, bring up this case, talk about the terrible statistics that have been quoted. Condemn it. It's quite possible that one of your friends is an abuser.

Apologies, I've forgotten which PP said this. But I do rather like this idea.

Do all of the nice, decent guys on here do this on a regular basis? Bring up these events, or other issues of misogyny, to discuss with other nice male friends?

Or do you just sit back and enjoy being a nice guy? That's not meant to sound snarky. Just wondering.

As a woman who left an abusive marriage, I wouldn't post about this stuff on FB. Because my ex might somehow get to know I posted about it, and might think it was a direct criticism of him and decide to take that out on me or our child. So I keep a low profile and don't rock the boat where he might see it.

Something to think about if you're wondering why on earth it would do any good for the nice men to publicly discuss and condemn misogyny. Remember that many of the women who are targets of this abuse feel prevented from talking about it openly. If the nice men are just sitting back being nice, but not taking the lead on condemning male violence (please don't make me repeat the statistics on who commits the majority of violent crimes) ... a few more voices could help.

The rugby player analogy isn’t comparable. If an overwhelming proportion of violent crimes were committed by rugby players then we’d be having that conversation.

And I said that where? I'll wait

Oh I’m sorry, you’re ok with us talking about male violence are you? Great, well crack on then.

I'm raising two boys and I will educate them on these issues and hope they love and respect all of the people in their life

It's everyone's job.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX
I do agree with you to an extent but I’m saddened to read the papers every day and see story after story about innocent women dying at the hands of men.
Derailing the discussion to make it about men negates the reality that violence against women is a very real issue. I could find hundreds of examples of women being strangled, raped, dismembered etc predominantly by their partners or ex partners. It would take me much longer to find comparable examples of violence against men.

People are far keener to talk about women's words and how mean they are than the subject at hand, happens every thread.

Grim reading.

Just derail derail derail.

To the PP who told me to get a grip, I’m glad you’ve never been in a position where you’ve had to take painful legal action to stop someone from scaring you.

It should be everyone’s job, but it isn’t possible when the problem of male violence is framed as a women’s problem. Apart from a bit of handwringing and chat about crime, guidelines and mopping up afterwards, what actually happens as a result of the effort put in by numerous women’s charities and individual women to end male violence? Progress is painfully, painfully slow and will be until it’s accepted and tackled as men’s problem.

Angels You phrased it as a question in a response to something I said, so I assumed you were directing it specifically at me. If not, fair enough.

Hack Yes, others have suggested that. But unfortunately all you can do is hope. As stated previously plenty of men who have had really good home lives, educated on these issues, taught to love and respect all people, still end up being abusers.

And that's the problem, for me. I suspect we will all be here in 10, 20, 30 years time saying exactly the same things. Words are pointless. Actions might make a difference. How about seriously long jail terms, without parole, for those found guilty of violent offences? That would take some off the streets and out of homes at least. Might even make a few percentage stop and think about their behaviour. But even then, I sadly don't think it would have much effect. I suppose Shatner and other men could write to their MP about that.

I grew up with a very violent and predatory father. We lived in terror of him doing something like this for years after my mother left him. Even as an adult, living independently, I still had terrible fear of him finding me which ramped up massively when my children were born. It’s eased off in the last 10yrs (I’m in my 40’s) but the fear is still there. It’ll never go away, it’s imprinted.

@GCAcademic

Presumably you're referring to this post -

YANBU to be concerned - even scared - about an abusive ex.

YAB massively U to generalise to half the population.
How rude and offensive to all the hateful "men" who are risking their own lives to save and help others.

There are famous cases of children neglected and left for dead by their mother, or violently abused by same mothers. Does it mean all mothers are a risk for their children? Of course not.

Why do you generalise for some cases but not others?

I think that's down to personal interpretation. I can see why you see it as trying to shout down women, but personally, it doesn't read that way to me at all.