To be terrified by the Australian rugby coach setting his family on fire?

[SeasonallySnowyPeasant]

In brief: earlier today an Australian ex-rugby player was in the car with his wife and their three children, poured petrol over her and set her alight. She, he and the children all died. The parents were ending their marriage and disputing custody over the children.

It’s absolutely horrific and I just wonder why there seem to be no depths to which some men - and it almost always is men - will sink when it comes to asserting their dominance over women and children. Throwing acid over them seems to be the newest ‘thing’ over the past 3 years. Assault, rape, stalking, harassment, murder are so common as to be un-newsworthy.

It scares me. My exH was abusive and I have a non-molestation order to prevent him from continuing the abuse. At the back of my mind I worry about him taking something I do/say as pushing him too far and being seriously hurt or killed. What if he decides one day to kill our DC?

Why won’t men sort their lives out and put an end to this horrific violence?

No apologies for posting this in AIBU. Women are being mutilated and killed. Many more are living in fear. It’s a conversation that needs to happen without the outrage of NAMALT.

Agree 100%. Ignore @Lockheart and other almost apologists.

Explain your analogy please and how on earth you think it's appropriate to align men who aren't rapists with Jewish people in the face of Nazis.

Thanks.

I see you think it's inevitable that men will rape and murder and would rather focus on war.
Ok I'll continue thinking it's bad that women and children (and men and boys) are subjected to sexual crime which is not taken seriously by society, and that more should be done to prevent before the event, pursue assailants, and punish them appropriately and with due consideration of public protection.

The dismissal of the women killed every day around the world by violent men, because lots of other women in that day aren't killed, is bonkersly callous.

For everyone on this thread getting outraged on behalf on men, no one has ever said it’s all men who are violent towards women and children but it’s disingenuous to pretend men killing partners or ex partners rare.

The latest figures show murders of women by men are at one of the highest rates since records began.

I agree that we need all the men who say they’re the good ones to take a stronger stand against the general objectification of women - sort themselves out.

Surely the good men ought to be the ones to start fixing this?

Let's ignore VAWG and sexual violence as it's inevitable and in any case, not even think about looking at it until we have achieved world peace

Taking this a little too far now!

So, men who aren't rapists are like Jews and men who do rape are like neo-Nazis?

That is a seriously shit analogy, as are the ones that follow.

I think it's more your comprehension.

I'm talking about the frequent assertion that 'men are responsible for stopping male violence'. It sounds convincing as a headline, but I agree with the poster (Goosefoot?) who previously said that class analysis falls apart when considered practically.

If men are responsible for male violence, then my question is 'which men?' Is a gay man responsible for the violent acts of a homophobic thug? If we don't take the view that the main people responsible are the perpetrators themselves, then how do we decide which men are responsible. Because clearly not all men are.

'Which men need to sort it out? Do Jews need to sort out neo-Nazis? Do POC need to take responsibility for the KKK? '

No you need to do better.

Who are the Jews and the black men in your analogies and who are the Nazis and the kkk how do they fit given the history of those groups, which revolve around murdering with impunity.

Let's ignore VAWG and sexual violence as it's inevitable and in any case, not even think about looking at it until we have achieved world peace.

Ok, so what's your solution to ensure that two men out of many million don't snap each week?

As we speak there are many heated domestic arguments going on. Out of the men who've just been slapped across the face by their partner/found out they've been cheating, etc, how do we know which ones will walk away and which ones will 'lose it' and club their partner to death?

I don't think any amount of 'education' will be useful in some cases where 'acts of passion/rage' are the case as it's pure loss of control that is likely the case - e.g. in 'overkillings' where they might stab their partner say 40 times. That's not the actions of a rational person (well, not in that particular moment in time).

It may be a bit like asking 'how do we stop dogs biting people', although honestly I'm no expert and don't profess to have all the answers.

'Ok, so what's your solution to ensure that two men out of many million don't snap each week?'

Snap... Interesting vice of word.

Explain your analogy. Who are the Jews and who are the Nazis and how do they fit given the history between those two groups.

Who are the Jews and the black men in your analogies and who are the Nazis and the kkk how do they fit given the history of those groups, which revolve around murdering with impunity.

You're reading too much into it.

I'm pointing out that within the class of men there will be victims and perpetrators. Saying all men are responsible means that the victim then also becomes responsible for the violence against himself - a particularly perverse sort of victim blaming.

Choice not vice in my pp.

Also this is interesting

'As we speak there are many heated domestic arguments going on. Out of the men who've just been slapped across the face by their partner/found out they've been cheating, etc, how do we know which ones will walk away and which ones will 'lose it' and club their partner to death?'.

The examples given are of men who were 'provoked' and 'snapped'.

That's really interesting.

Your posts say more than you realise they do. And you seem to think you're being totally reasonable

Tbh, Frogs, I get the feeling that at this stage you're not going to agree with anything I say as you've decided which 'side' I'm on....

Not good enough.

You don't get to use the Jews experience at the hands of the Nazis to make a point unless it is a really good fit. Because otherwise it's just crass.

Your explanation just now seems to put male victims of sexual violence at the hands of men in the position of Jews and male perpetrators as nazis.

Where are the female victims in this, the people the whole thread is about? You have totally written them out. Similarly, all the men who are neither victims nor perpetrators.

Nope sorry doesn't fit at all. Explain better or admit your analogies were ill fitting and crass.

The examples given are of men who were 'provoked' and 'snapped'.

I did actually almost put a disclaimer to say that I'm not saying these are the only possible permutations - although I do believe that statistically the majority of domestic incidents involving one blow are perpetrated by women (meaning that there are many men who don't hit back).

Are you saying that somebody who stabs another human 40 times does it calmly and methodically? I'm no criminal expert but this seems unlikely. I'd imagine they indeed 'lose it' when committing such an unthinkable crime.

I sometimes think the Freedom programme should be a GCSE topic

But when you read about our immolater here he was bought up by a father who taught him
Women were servants or whores

So the messaging that even little boys get from day one is that women are inferior

I don’t know what the solution is and we really need to figure it out

It almost as if it’s too unpleasant to contemplate for the world , that 55% have a predisposition to abuse the other 45%

Do any other mammals have this problem ?

I am saying that when women are killed it is not invariably because they provoked the man.

And that not all domestic murders are because the man 'snapped'.

You sound like someone from the 70s tbh.

Explain your nazi analogy. Or admit it was bollocks. The Jews were murdered in millions by Nazis. How does this relate to the idea that men should stand up against male violence?

You don't get to use the Jews experience at the hands of the Nazis to make a point unless it is a really good fit. Because otherwise it's just crass.

Nope sorry doesn't fit at all. Explain better or admit your analogies were ill fitting and crass.

Don't have time for virtue signallers, and don't have to 'explain' anything to you. Throughout the thread you've been continually trying to find gotcha after gotcha rather than engaging with my points.

Again, if all men are responsible for male violence, where does this leave male victims - who are statistically the principle victims of male violence?

Surely the good men ought to be the ones to start fixing this?

I'd sooner see us tackle it as a society.

When you convince a woman that it's the responsibility of the bloke sitting next to her on the sofa, then that's potentially one less person who feels obliged to help.

This is more outing than I'd like, but my previous job was as a technical specialist for the MOD, managing technologies that were used by frontline troops and also by domestic security. I've worked on counter-terrorist security for the 2012 Olympics, which could be seen as combating what is largely male violence, often fuelled by patriarchal values. I also worked on the Afghanistan war, and my imaging was sometimes used to determine the difference between insurgents and civilians, and thus whether to bomb the area - potentially saving dozens of civilian lives if conducted effectively.

The same goes for female law enforcement - police, court officials, etc. Imagine if every woman thinking of joining the police said 'actually I won't bother as most crime is perpetrated by men and it's not my responsibility'.

"Are you saying that somebody who stabs another human 40 times does it calmly and methodically? I'm no criminal expert but this seems unlikely. I'd imagine they indeed 'lose it' when committing such an unthinkable crime."
Actually I read on here recently that often where there are multiple stab wounds in domestic killings, many of the initial wounds are surface wounds, not deep, more a kind of torture. So yes, could quite easily be done 'calmly, in a sense.

Whilst women still play a major role in bringing up their children, then you cant leave destroying toxic masculinity to men. I have heard almost as much damaging gender shit coming out of womens mouths as mens as I've brought up my sons.

I read about this case on the weekend - horrifying

metro.co.uk/2020/02/22/dad-murdered-wife-two-sons-family-holiday-disney-world-12284010/

@caperberries

That article talks way too much about how much the killer loved his family. Why don’t they focus on the victims instead of the killer? The article ends with the killer’s sister’s message:

‘He is the best man and father I have ever known and I wish I could have told him that so he knew how much he was loved and looked up too.’

@annamie I assume the poor woman must be in shock as that message is utterly deranged.

MissChardonnay What your argument is missing is that predatory violence in males is strongly linked to personality disorders - antisocial personality disorder in particular. Many of these men are skilled at coming across initially as perfectly normal - or even not just normal, but empathetic and kind. Abused women, especially women subject to coercive control, repeatedly tell the same story - that he was a wonderful partner at first, and only gradually began to show his true nature, once they were seriously committed. This makes the argument that women should be able to somehow 'detect' that they are 'bad boys' very dubious - especially for younger women with less experience.

The idea that family annihilators are normal men who for some reason "snap" is thus deeply suspect. Research has uncovered a "homicide timeline" that links these murders to coercive control:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49481998

Well, it takes two to tango. 🤷‍♀️

No it doesn't. You're the only person doing it at the moment and it's fucking revolting.

@Thisisworsethananticpated the behavioral ecology systems of most mammals would be considered abusive if transferred to humans. But you cant really equate them like that, except to say that all gene's do what they need to to replicate and large amounts of wastage is the norm.