To think people expect too much from mothers of very small children?

[BellingtonWoots]

Well, parents, not just mothers, but mainly mothers. Because I'm starting to feel like this is the case.

DD is 18 months old. I went back to work when she was 9 months old, but did bits and pieces at home and KIT days from 6 months. DH works shifts, so I do most of the bedtimes, getting ready, breakfast, though DH does have days off where he does everything while I work. So DH isn't the problem here. It's more of a general thing, how other people see me/what society expects of me.

I honestly feel like I hit the ground running since DD was born. We had family and friends descend on us for daily visits for weeks after she was born, which was lovely in a way but very tiring and I didn't get to rest as much as I wanted. I had a section and although I recovered well, it was slow, and I still have pain and discomfort around my scar.

No sooner did things get into a routine with DD, and no sooner was she a little less dependent on me due to weaning, than it seemed I had to go back to work. Life ever since has been extremely busy, and all of a sudden she's 18 months old and becoming a toddler really

She doesn't sleep well, we're tired and we have very little time to ourselves. I would love to stay at home and go at her pace- trips to the park, reading stories- but I have to work. I have cut down my hours, but I simply couldn't afford to be a SAHM and I don't really know anyone who is- PILs already seem to think I'm taking advantage of DH by reducing my hours.

People also seem to think that I have loads of time on my hands now. SIL was always asking me to watch her four year old when I was off on maternity, even when DD was only six weeks old and I was still very sore. I had friends asking me for lifts, asking me to pick them up from places, because they knew I'd be home. People invite DH and I to things, and get ratty and offended when we say we can't come. It's not like we are the first in our circle to have children, in fact on DH's side we are the last. They are always asking DH for favours too (related to his job) asking him to come and do this or that at their house. Most of the time he says no, but still. We really do have such limited time together as a family, and even less as a couple, we are lucky to even get an hour in the evening because of DD sleeping badly, we don't want to give up half of Saturday running around to please other people.

My parents are very good, to be fair, and I remember as a child they would have done things like pick up my aunt who had a small baby to save her having to drive to Granny's 70th party, because "she'll be tired and it'll be nice for her to have the rest" and there was an understanding that small children were hard work, that sometimes they prevented people doing things, and although the women in my family all had jobs ranging from teacher to cleaner, there was a sense that staying at home for periods of time was totally normal and understandable as well

I don't know if it's just the circles I'm in now, but I feel like the pressure is now the opposite way- you're being selfish and self indulgent and weak if you don't make the baby fit in with your previous life, you shouldn't make any changes, you shouldn't fall into the trap of being a boring mum.

I've realised I have to put really firm boundaries in place and to ring-fence my time at home and with DH and DD, and my time on my own as well, or I could run myself ragged pleasing other people. I find it so hard being away from DD too. Luckily I can leave her with DH no problem, which I do at times, and obviously she gets childminded, and it's fine, but I don't WANT to leave her a whole lot more than that- I had her because I wanted to raise a child, and when I'm home from work I want to actually see her!

Unless we give people TIME to have kids then we will have a considerable aging population issue, unless we as feminist RESPECT the unbelievably hard work it is for many parents to bring up kids well with all the enrichment (playing, reading, healthy food, emotional attention), and make it valued, high-status work, men will never want to take it on. Why would they??

Totally agree with this!!

Simplistically feminism was born from a situation where women’s labour was not valued. Nurturing the young, caring for the old and sick, home making and cleaning were unpaid, low paid and had no social standing. Women’s labour outside the home was worth less than a man’s.

We have pushed the boundaries of what women are allowed to do; what jobs they may hold and in what circumstances they can work (eg abolishing the marriage bar). And women who work like men are afforded some respect.

But we still have a situation where women are exploited for the care of young children, the disabled, the elderly and the sick, and their contribution brings no respect, status and extremely poor or no remuneration.

And outside the home women’s labour, taken as a whole, is still worth less than men’s (gender pay gap)

This isn’t the fault of feminism- but it is the failure of feminism, or at least, it’s what feminism hasn’t yet managed to change.

As a sahm I am so grateful for feminism which protects my rights. My dh cannot sell our family home from over our heads, cannot cut me off with a shilling in his will, etc, cannot kick me out, cannot commit me to a mental institution. My grandmother used to tell me stories of actual women she knew that these things had happened to.

The women’s liberation movement rightly challenged the sanctification of motherhood and homemaking, because it was a cynical and patronising piece of propaganda that was designed to keep women in their place.

But when confronted with the realities of early parenthood, many families will make economic choices that make financial sense for the family unit but damage the woman’s earning potential, and by extension women as a class.

So we’re in this frustrating stalemate where we can’t discuss the realities of early motherhood without reinforcing the patriarchy, yet the erosion of wider societal support is clearly damaging to women in particular.

And when you add to all that the trend to maintain a project a fake image of our success/happiness on social media, any struggles we have feel very isolating.

I’ve no idea what the answer is.
Sorry you’re finding it tough OP

It is hard. But the reason it is hard is not because women have been sold that they can have it all.

It’s hard because all the same domestic work exists plus eco consciousness increase in domestic work as the options to decrease domestic work are not eco friendly.

Two parents working decreases time available for domestic tasks and increases logistics and cost for holidays, drop off, pick up, after school and breakfast club, ill children, appointments during working day.

None of these mean the non-paid tasks should be the sole responsibility of one of the working parents. In practice though a lot of women do find themselves in a position where their income is shared but no reciprocal fair sharing of the domestic work is happening.

Maybe the slogan should be men- paid work is not the only work.

Pre-children in a relationship it’s easy to not notice or challenge inequity of domestic tasks as the volume isn’t overwhelming. Post children the massive increase in domestic tasks is not absorbable.

I wondered this too pegs. DH was really keen to do it and loved it but a lot of the parents I spoke to, be it the mothers or fathers, didn't think the men would be up for it at all.

Unless we give people TIME to have kids then we will have a considerable aging population issue, unless we as feminist RESPECT the unbelievably hard work it is for many parents to bring up kids well with all the enrichment (playing, reading, healthy food, emotional attention), and make it valued, high-status work, men will never want to take it on. Why would they??

I don't disagree with your post as a whole, @Wetcarparkrain, but who is the 'we' in this section which seems not to include men?

We won't, we will just have more immigration. We don't need people to have kids in Britain.

Society is seeing the impact of the lack of time available to put into child rearing. Children in early years arriving without the skills that take a huge amount of time to develop which isn’t available to working parents on deadlines to get to work on time. If you need to leave at 7 you don’t have same amount of time to do zips, buttons, ties, laces, child doing own cereal and milk etc etc as someone who leaves for school at 8:15. You don’t have the whole day to develop skills on a 1:1 basis in under 3s or for 3 and 4 year olds. Or the hours from 3:30 to bedtime to do similar for older kids. You have the time from when you get in the door to make dinner and do homework and bedtime. And that’s not taking into account shift workers who have even more complicated logistics.

The women who previously picked up the support of relatives, neighbours, friends during the school day are in much shorter supply. Care crisis.

None of this is solved by “leaning in” lowering home standards or not doing as many extra curricular activities.

The demonisation of women as responsible for societal issues has to stop. Mothers in paid work - terrible parents bad kids. Mothers not in paid work - leeches bad example, bad kids.

If the current issues are caused by systems that relied on unpaid labour to function they need to change.

Feminists do respect the enrichment. If we didn’t we wouldn’t be tearing ourselves apart trying to do it alongside paid work and forever feeling like we aren’t hitting the mark as a parent, partner or worker.

I never realised until I had a child what an anti-child country the UK is.

This is very far from my experience. So many people encouraged me to treasure the early years. Wherever I take DD, strangers are kind, interacting with her or complimenting me on her. And friends and family love her, want to spend time with her, and generally try to spoil her.

I suppose I think we should all be feminists? Or all support women in the early days of infant life (I was very sick in pregnancy, horrific birth and operation six months post partum) if they are finding it hard not to just ‘bounce back’ into life, as other pp have said too. Like, not assume having a baby is just another bishbashbosh item on the tick list of achievements but quite a big life-changing, life-threatening deal.

And then encourage men to take up a four day week or a career break or some kind of flexibility or just dial back aspirations for five years.

Also, and what was surprising to me, was that a lot of men seemed very respectful about taking time off to be with small children (maybe just because they didn’t have to do it?) whereas quite a few women in my life were very dismissive of it and almost like I had revealed myself to be this pathetic weakling who couldn’t quite hack the professional pace. I was more senior to them in the workplace too, due to rapid promotion pre-babies.... it was as if I had let everyone down, it was almost shaming.

*This isn’t the fault of feminism- but it is the failure of feminism, or at least, it’s what feminism hasn’t yet managed to change.

How can it be a failure if it is still a work in progress?

I don’t understand the viewpoint that feminism has failed us if we’re still working on the part where women and what we do can/should be seen as equal or just as important as what a man does. Why blame feminism for this current issue instead of saying that society itself needs to change its views on parenting, work and what it means for/to both sexes period?

I don’t have this stress to be perfect nor do I want to be perfect. The only one putting these pressures on you OP from the sounds of it is you. F**k perfection especially if it is making you unhappy. If your friends don’t understand despite them having gone through similar or same things, that’s about them not you. There is nothing wrong with concentrating on yourself and your family. I’m pretty sure they are doing the same.

I was a sahm and realised after my second turned one I couldn’t do it until he was in school. It was effecting my mental health having little time to myself. We didn’t have anyone to look after them and my husband traveled quite a bit. I told my husband I’m going back to work and we talked out how to make that happen. He works from home more and we plan out our schedules and who needs to move things around. I work part-time and our youngest is in nursery the two days I work midweek which works because I can pick my oldest up and have some one on one time with him before picking up his brother. My husband and I still go out on our own. I may go to the gym or yoga class, maybe an event or a movie and he may pop out for a pint or meet up with some friends. I work in a lovely shop with a great team where the time flies by. We’re a mixed group of women in different stages in our life and we are able to switch and cover each other when we need to and this includes other stores as well.

Also, who says by not taking some time for yourself you are not raising your child? I heard my mum say crap like this about why have a child if you’re not going to be there yet ignores the fact that she wasn’t exactly around much herself choosing to work two jobs and when she was home she was a nightmare due to tiredness and stress. I wished she would have taken some time to care for herself and maybe I would have had a mum who wasn’t always shouting and filled with criticism. I often wished she would just stay at work because it was better when she wasn’t around. She takes more time for herself now and she is much easier to get along with.

Also couples with kids can survive on one wage. One side of my family is very religious and all the women are SAHM. Most of the men do not have well paying jobs. They manage. They just have less money than most people here would want to live on.
You have to make choices. Nobody can have it all.

Also couples with kids can survive on one wage. One side of my family is very religious and all the women are SAHM. Most of the men do not have well paying jobs. They manage. They just have less money than most people here would want to live on.

You have to make choices. Nobody can have it all.

Sure you can. Nobody describes men as 'having it all' when they work and have children. And I don't you're really advocating living life according to the tenets of a reactionary, patriarchal religious set of religious beliefs that reduce women's lives to Kinder Kuche, Kirche, surely?

@samhradh I don't think most men have it all. From what I see a lot of men are pretty distant from their own kids.

And no I was not advocating that. What I was saying is you can't have a career, kids you spend time with, a show home, and a great social life. You have to make choices. Personally I would advocate ditching the show home idea.

Karencantobe are you aiming that at men and women?

Maybe the real question should be why is it assumed that its always the woman that should compromise work for the children if there are 2 parents?

@CatalogueUniverse Both, but I am not stupid, I know some men have it all by making their female partners do much more than their share.

@Pegsinarow DH has just been told by his head that they'll almost certainly approve his application to go part-time in September, so here's hoping we're a success story...

That's good news LisaSimpsonsbff hope it works out for you all!

Both DH and I dropped one day a week each when I returned back to work after mat leave.... still going strong over a year later