To find SOME Brexiteer gloating embarrassing?

[SirChing]

I have read threads saying that we have left and "nothing has happened, just like the millennium bug".

Well, that'll be because we are transition so the No Deal situation has been avoided - for now.

And the millennium bug didn't happen because loads of IT people worked their arses off for years to prevent it.

I have read a rant about us needing new passports for this summer costing £1000, due to remained MPs and civil servants wanting to "punish" leavers.

I am cringing at the level of gloating and "so nerr" posts on here, flinging about bollocks as facts, and celebrating something which noone seems to be able to demonstrate any positives for.

Just me?

We won....you lost.....fuck off.

@ReginaPark Wow, devastating argument there!

Oh well SirChing when it all goes tits up you'll get to tell us Leavers I told you so.

I say 'When' as you seem so damn sure it will.

ReginaPark was that really necessary?

Anyone that has refused to listen to anyone else's fears have led up to this. Not just politicians

I would have listened if anyone had talked about it prior to the referendum being announced. Wasn't exactly a hot topic though was it?

Again you are saying what other people should think and feel, and you can't see how this could possibly affect a vote?

No, I was asking a question. And, quite honestly, if people's votes changed, about something which effects the country so much, because of something some internet random said, then I do question their maturity of thinking. Massively.

gonna agree with SirChing and MrsItsNoworNotatAll1

ReginaPark

What a stunning argument, that just proves their point and opens up everyone else.

If the vote had been smoothly implemented directly after the ref... I would say, no gloating. But after 3 years of hostage, gloating, court cases, vitriol, abuse, attacks...

I'm think leavers are allowed to gloat a little.

SirChing

People have spoken about immigration for years and got called racist and little Englander.
People have had jobs taken from them by illegal work gangs and unscrupulous farmers etc.etc.

Yet all that happened was them being called racist and discussion shutdown.

And, quite honestly, if people's votes changed, about something which effects the country so much, because of something some internet random said, then I do question their maturity of thinking. Massively.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this was real life not some random on the internet.

But it didn't happen where you or others lived so it didn't matter.

@MrsItsNoworNotatAll1 I wouldn't say I told you so when it goes tits up. Only if someone who voted leave moans to me about any negative consequences. Otherwise, gloating isn't a good look for anyone.

It isn't ME who thinks it will go tits up. It's our own government, the Bank of England, the IMF, the World Bank, the vast majority of economists etc. If all those people think it will, then I am inclined to agree with them.

It would be foolhardy to ignore those people whose job it is to forecast eventualities, in favour of pretending that no-one knows as we don't have a crystal ball. We DO know, as all the potential outcomes have been modelled. Whatever stance the government takes, we will be in a much worse position than we are now. That's not mindreading, it's paying attention.

The whole thing of "noone knows", as if Brexit is some giant undiscovered land, is just simply not true. We DO know. People might not like what the facts are, but it doesn't mean they aren't true.

I am frustrated to death with people believing that their opinion is as valid as expert facts. It's lunacy.

WeSavedSallySally

ssshhhh.

We are not allowed to talk about the "hostage, gloating, court cases, vitriol, abuse, attacks..." as it spoils the moral high-ground/we are the victim mentality.

SirChing

They are not "expert facts" they are expert opinions.

And they seem to change like the wind.

But it didn't happen where you or others lived so it didn't matter

What didn't? To be honest, I am not actually clear about what you are trying to say. Where I live has a high immigrant population. In general, it's seen as a positive thing.

Illegal work gangs and unscrupulous farmers should and could have been dealt with via our own domestic laws. Why they weren't, is another question.

Not do I have available stats for how many unscrupulous farmers there are. Are they the same ones whose crops are now rotting in fields because there is noone coming forward to pick the crop? Its surprising really that if people wanted rid of immigrants to get jobs, that other people didn't immediately take the crop picking jobs that the EU workers no longer do.

I hope every single promise made by the very professional Leave campaign comes true for those who voted for it. I also hope those voters hold politicians in power now accountable if what they voted for doesn't happen.

Oh my God - hostages? Who? I have heard it all now! Those court cases to make sure democratic processes were followed? Like the Gina Miller one? Who's co-petitioner was a leaver but was savvy enough to believe that due democratic process should be followed?

I don't get it. Some leavers moaned that they wanted our parliament and laws to be Sovereign. But when the proper procedure is followed to make sure that everything is democratic and legal, that's not good enough.

So what is it that you DO want? Aside from to say that you have been "held hostage", and for another wondrous leaver brain to prove the entire point of my OP by saying "we won, you lost, fuck off".

This is honestly like having a discussion with an overtired toddler who doesn't know what they want, they just know that things aren't "fair".

Hostages? Hah! Remind me, those MPs who couldn't go home due to rape and death threats.....leavers were they? Oh no, that's right, remainers. Just like Jo Cox. One side kills people and makes death threats, the other side follow democratic process and are therefore accused of holding people hostage

They are not "expert facts" they are expert opinions

You clearly don't quite get the difference. The BofE saying that business will suffer is a Fact. That people will die if medicines can't be brought into the country after the transition period ends, is a Fact.

The government have said all this, despite wanting Brexit. Its Only some leavers who refuse to face the facts. So call them opinions to kid themselves that the consequences will be better than the government have said.

Its surprising really that if people wanted rid of immigrants to get jobs, that other people didn't immediately take the crop picking jobs that the EU workers no longer do.

No not really. Crop picking is mostly seasonal work. Hardly going to suit someone with a family to support. You can't claim benefits whilst working so you have to go through the long and arduous process of trying to claim them when the work stops. Unless you're prepared to relocate from farm to farm.

So what is it that you DO want? well what do you want?

@MrsItsNoworNotatAll1 You can claim Universal Credit whilst working, same as you can for other NMW jobs. Some of which are also seasonal, yet people still take them. I used to live in a seaside resort where it was common to work for a month or two then reclaim. With UC, noone even has to reclaim now, so I don't buy that. If it was the case, no-one would work on a zero hours contract whilst on UC would they?

Aside from the fact that I asked leavers what they wanted, aside from to gloat and moan, I personally want us to leave the EU in a way which isn't rushed, which protects workers and environmental regulations (so Theresa Mays deal rather than the shite BoJo has negotiated), and to use evidence based knowledge to make decisions on the best way to leave the EU, rather than it being some giant nebulous exercise in patriotism which makes us weaker and bites us hard on the arse.

Probably a Norway arrangement or BINO. And not a trade deal with the US or China which has is asking "how high" when they tell us to jump. I value to legal.protections of our food and agriculture that the EU gave us. Most of which were put forward by the UK initially anyway. And I don't want our society to become less safe in terms of the NHS, food etc, as a side effect of having a trade deal with the US.

I would prioritise a trade deal with the EU far above and beyond one with the US or China, as they are our largest trading block neighbour, and we are less likely to be held to ransom by Trump who is a one man law unto himself. He may have been voted in democratically, but has now become a pseudo-dictator. Which is far less democratic than doing a deal with the elected MEPs of the EU.

I also.want those leavers who are gloating to stop it. We are in transition. There is nothing to gloat about. And If they feel concerned that some remainers have called them thick, it would be better if they didn't add weight to that argument.

Sorry, that was an essay!

Crop picking is mostly seasonal work. Hardly going to suit someone with a family to support

It seemed to suit the EU immigrants with families who were doing the work. Odd.

I'd say it's time for left-of-centre Remain voters, of which I am one, to stop insulting the other side and start talking about what can be made of a decision we did not vote for. For example:

renationalising natural monopolies (a plurality of Leave voters support this)

limited but strategic state aid to domestic industry (to try to equalise regional prosperity)

the opportunity to foster good trade and relations with Commonwealth countries by prioritising them in a new immigration policy (a third of the UK BAME vote went to Leave and the prioritising of EU FoM over Commonwealth immigration was frequently cited)

Like it or not, the Labour Party has to fight the next election as non-members of the EU and has to win back many Leave voters who deserted it in 2019. So the productive, constructive thing to do is work out how the Labour Party could do "independent Britain" better than the Tories are going to manage over the next five years.

SirChing

You clearly don't quite get the difference.

Neither do you

The BofE saying that business will suffer is a Fact.

That they are saying it is a fact, but it is based on an opinion. It hasn't happened yet.

That people will die if medicines can't be brought into the country after the transition period ends, is a Fact.

The word if makes it not a fact.

MN is massively biased towards remain

That’s because MN is biased towards educated people due to needing to know how to type and spell. Most leavers are on Facebook hitting the share button on pictures of union jacks and propaganda

SirChing

Where I live has a high immigrant population. In general, it's seen as a positive thing.

In general it is a positive thing, But that doesn't mean that it hasn't negatively impact some people's lives.

Illegal work gangs and unscrupulous farmers should and could have been dealt with via our own domestic laws. Why they weren't, is another question.

See previous posts with reguard to not being able to speak badly of immigration due to being called a racist. Spot the link

Are they the same ones whose crops are now rotting in fields because there is noone coming forward to pick the crop?

Those would be the ones, the ones that wanted a low paid workforce to get more profit

Its surprising really that if people wanted rid of immigrants to get jobs, that other people didn't immediately take the crop picking jobs that the EU workers no longer do.

Do you not see how the farmers destroyed their own local workforce? can you not make the link between the two.

MrsItsNoworNotatAll1

No not really. Crop picking is mostly seasonal work. Hardly going to suit someone with a family to support.

People with families in farming areas did it for years.

SirChing

I also.want those leavers who are gloating to stop it. We are in transition. There is nothing to gloat about.

I would like this as well but then I would also like those remainers to stop acting like dicks.

And If they feel concerned that some remainers have called them thick, it would be better if they didn't add weight to that argument.

Victim blaming?

celebrating something which noone seems to be able to demonstrate any positives for

I’ve seen lots of excellent posts about reasons for leaving - not just from leavers - people putting it much better than I ever could.

But remainers don’t seem to ever acknowledge those points so I think people who voted leave just can’t be bothered going over it again and again and again and again and......

boney wonderful responses but you are wasting your time.

The number of times people have discovered I voted Leave and then coughed and spluttered and said something ludicrous like “but you aren’t racist at all”.

The inability to discuss anything remotely difficult - be it immigration or indeed anything else where there are different people affected such as the trans movement - without people screaming “hate hate hate!!!!” has seriously stifled proper debate of these issues.

@greenlavender

My point was that people on mn who voted leave don't always post as they receive abuse. Mn is definitely biased towards remain.