To find SOME Brexiteer gloating embarrassing?

[SirChing]

I have read threads saying that we have left and "nothing has happened, just like the millennium bug".

Well, that'll be because we are transition so the No Deal situation has been avoided - for now.

And the millennium bug didn't happen because loads of IT people worked their arses off for years to prevent it.

I have read a rant about us needing new passports for this summer costing £1000, due to remained MPs and civil servants wanting to "punish" leavers.

I am cringing at the level of gloating and "so nerr" posts on here, flinging about bollocks as facts, and celebrating something which noone seems to be able to demonstrate any positives for.

Just me?

This stuff is accessible

Yes it is.

But there is a divide between those that have lived this and those that just want to look at the data

And there are plenty of us who do both!

Turn that about face and we can ask why on earth we brits can't have free movement in Europe unless we are 'in it'!

You can. It's the Norway model. You just have to make freedom of movement reciprocal.

SirChing

You are conflating two separate things.

the agricultural workers. (not all legal)

And the movement of immigrants from the south coast to centers around the UK to be processed for visas etc.

SirChing

I agree that some do.

Boneyback.

The facts are correct.

Your article confirms all that I already said.

Lived experience is also shaped by people's prejudices, which taints their ability to be rational.

Go check out the Ofsted data if you dont believe me about the schools. The pay data is all on Nomis web.

malylis

Yet your "facts" about immigration movement is not.

Politics and voting isn't just about cold hard facts, it's about feelings

No it isn't.
What you describe is mob rule.

You are conflating two separate things

We will have to agree to disagree. I worked in housing for years and the only immigrants who were bussed around by the government were asylum seekers/refugees. .

Economic migrants went wherever they heard there were jobs. Which is exactly what the article you linked to says.

So the article reinforces the point that @malylis and I said.

On that note, I am off to bed. This is just painful!

In white working class/high immigrant areas there is a real divide between the value of education and support for children to achieve according to Amanda Spielman says WWC students and parents lack the drive of immigrants. It’s very obvious when you look at the very high achieving inner London schools with high immigrant cohorts.

There is, I suspect, a large part of the population in these areas that see the immigrant success as a bad thing and blame them rather than reflection their own responsibility to drive themselves through hardships towards a better future. Much, much easier to blame those who are different and maintain your personal status quo.

No it isn't
What you describe is mob rule

Quite. I have never once thought that leavers were thick. But I will say that the standard of argument is dire if this thread is anything to go by.

my "facts" about immigration were backed by the article you posted.

I gave you the websites if you want to check out more.

The facts you stated are utterly false.

SirChing

I said immigrants not economic migrants.

I have even posted that it is immigrants that didn't have visas etc.

But I can see that we are back to not listening again.

So these aren't EU immigrants and aren't allowed to work, and are housed mostly in centres not houses.

These are refugees so you were conflating as was pointed out.

@CherryPavlova Amen! Being "tired of experts" doesn't help.

The pride in voting on feelings not facts, the refusal to accept statistics in favour of one's own, confirmation bias, the FURY towards those who point out the facts, and claims that we "don't understand", really make me worry for the education system in this country.

Although I dont think it's the system so much as some parents not valuing education. And yes, teacher friends say this is a huge issue with white, working class kids.

People would rather moan and blame others and vote their "feelz" and are then pissed off when those of us who do value education and facts have the audacity to say they are wrong.

The sound bites about "healing" are driving me insane. It translates as "stop going on about it, you are making me feel uncomfortable". Well tough shit!

Yet the problem in Boston, which you cited, was EU immigrants. You know those in need of a visa aren't from the EU?

I said immigrants not economic migrants

Everyone who arrives into the country is an immigrant Whether they are an economic migrant, refugee, asylum seeker is decided when they arrive here.

So which ones were you referring to?

Its pretty hard to understand and listen when what is being written is nonsensical. I have been polite and moderate so far and do not appreciate the shitty attitude and tone of "back to not understanding".

Also, economic migrants don't need a visa. That's the point of freedom of movement! They dont need processing.

It's not us who are back to not listening. It is you who is giving incorrect information.

You are both patronising and incredibly rude. You are also wrong. We have been incredibly patient in replying to you, and I don't think you have any idea about how you come across.

Look we are talking at crossed wires. You are talking the last ten years, were there has been a huge influx of immigrants from the EU due to FoM, I am talking pre FoM.

Either way they are there legally and pay taxes etc. etc.

Once again you asked why people vote Brexit and I have given you an example.

Yes it is about the feelings of those there and their prejudices, it is about being ignored by those in power and the vote was as much about sticking to the man as anything else.

As I said this has gone on for 40+ years it is not something that has gone on in the last 10 years or even just before the EU vote.

You can argue the facts all you want but for those in Boston the facts turned in to just another strawman being used against them.

Oh and you can talk about my "shitty attitude" and put it with your "pissy attitude" from earlier.

SirChing

As the real you is finally coming out I will leave you to it.

@SirChing I'm the very last person who is a 'feelings' type. I'm a scientific analyst professionally. That notwithstanding, many people did vote in or out on perceived feelings, not hard facts.

Still the record shows that 0 pro EU MEPs have appeared
"There has never been a pro-EU MEP on Question Time."

Apart from Mairead McGuinness, Caroline Lucas (she was an MEP for 10 years) and Martina Anderson ("Sinn Fein's Martina Anderson tells Theresa May to 'stick border where the sun don't shine'" EU Parliament). Probably a few more if I could be bothered to check again. No wonder they didn't invite Catherine Bearder to appear on QT if she just tweets what she reads on social media.

the fact that we have supported 97% of the EU laws passed - the facts, I suppose - the truth is nothing like the image which the media and government peddled.

Increasingly less by 2015 - FullFact:

"Research by Dr Hagemann and Professor Hix shows that between 2009 and 2015 the UK voted against the majority 12.3% of the time, compared to 2.6% of the time between 2004 and 2009."

There is no getting away from the fact that membership of the EU is £29 [per capita] though.

The BBC says 112 euros per capita (2017) - I think someone posted on the Brexit board last week that many of the leave voting constituencies only benefitted from the EU by £10 per capita.

Which bit of Europe do the non UK communities in the west Midlands come from?

EU migration has increased substantially since the referendum apparently;

"The data shows that the number of EU citizens coming to live in Sandwell more than doubled from 14,000 to 31,000–a spike of 121 per cent–with migration from Romania and Bulgaria up by a staggering 400 per cent."

One in 10 Sandwell residents is now from Europe, compared with 5.7 per cent across the UK.

www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2018/12/08/eu-citizens-flood-in-despite-brexit/

Oh and you can talk about my "shitty attitude" and put it with your "pissy attitude" from earlier

First of all, when I made a mistake I apologised. You have accused me of several things, and when I have pointed out that you are both wrong in your accusations and offensive, you have lacked the grace to apologise.

You now say you were talking pre freedom of movement but link an article reflecting the current situation to somehow "prove your point".

I have not displayed a "pissy attitude" but your posts speak for themselves. When it is pointed out that you are incorrect, you become rude and short in tone.

When you make baseless claims against others and they reply to state why you are incorrect, you either ignore or move swiftly on to an adjacent subject.

So far, I have kept my cool and tried to avoid being rude. But after a day of your goading, I have had enough. If your posts on this thread are an example of your best arguments, then I am no longer going to engage with you. It's frustrating and, quite honestly, I am embarrassed for you. Have a good evening.

As the real you is finally coming out Again, breathtakingly rude and showing a massive lack of self awareness. Still, I am not at all going to object to you leaving the thread.

The reason we voted against them more between 2009 and 2015 was so Cameron could posture with his party faithful not for any real reasons.

So those communities that are increasing wouldn't have made a difference to people's attitudes in 2016 then, would they Clav?

You really need to read the context of the question before running away to left click whatever confirms your bias.

I wouldn't believe that piece of data about benefitting from the EU. Huge swathes of leave areas were massive beneficiaries of EU money, and of course are in net deficit with the rest of the UK too.