To find SOME Brexiteer gloating embarrassing?

[SirChing]

I have read threads saying that we have left and "nothing has happened, just like the millennium bug".

Well, that'll be because we are transition so the No Deal situation has been avoided - for now.

And the millennium bug didn't happen because loads of IT people worked their arses off for years to prevent it.

I have read a rant about us needing new passports for this summer costing £1000, due to remained MPs and civil servants wanting to "punish" leavers.

I am cringing at the level of gloating and "so nerr" posts on here, flinging about bollocks as facts, and celebrating something which noone seems to be able to demonstrate any positives for.

Just me?

I've repeatedly said I understand why people would vote to remain. I imagine most leave voters weighed the pros and cons of their vote and came down on the side they believed was right.
I have no axe to grind and nothing is upsetting for me.
Quite frankly, if anyone is asking now why anyone voted 'leave' where have you been for decades? I'd say that whatever my vote.
I was gutted at New Labour and Blair Britain but I understood it was the zeitgeist of the early turn of the century. Politics and voting isn't just about cold hard facts, it's about feelings. Just like a lot of life.

@malylis well said. I understand that people's perception of situations may well be different to the actual facts, but you are right about Boston always being quoted.

If People have a problem with farmers and gangsters, then they know where the authorities are to report them. Blaming the EU for the people being able to get here in the first place makes as much sense as blaming planes and ferries.

It's nonsensical to blame the means which allows people to be here, for the exploitative activities that some UK citizens engage the people in when they arrive.

I think people not being able to grasp things like that, and blindly blaming the EU instead of the government and law enforcement, is what has given rise to people being called thick.

It's not that remainers don't understand that is the problem. It's that we understand all too well. And are pissed off that the wrong people are being held responsible for the failures of others.

malylis

The Government didn't decide to put immigrants there at all, they were brought in by the agri industries.

Yes they brought in gang workers.

They didn't bus in immigrants from the south East, or have you forgotten that the government decided to "share the cost" of the immigrants coming in to the country?

As for low wages already said that.

Maternity ward great, still very little infrastructure.

you want to talk about schools look at the progress 8 scores, levels of EAL and FSM etc.

Talking about rents and not knowing the state of some of the houses.

crime figures no idea.

But you wanted to talk about reasons I gave you them.

Boney thank you! This is really helpful.

I think these sorts of explanations are easier to understand, people who are suffering economically and being given a clear villain by the government and press.

Who were these immigrants being bused in? Do you mean asylum seekers?

malylis

Leaving the EU wasn't high on any agenda until after 2010.

And you avoid the point again.

You only cared about these areas when you thought that you would loose the EU, this has been going on for years.

Do you really not understand how propaganda works and how the EU has been blamed for so much over the years?

Because you only gave a shit when it affected you directly

And that is actually both offensive and massively untrue. I have been writing to my MP for years about the issues regarding lack of government reinvestment of taxes in areas with high immigration. And lack of investment in the North making competition for jobs fiercer.

And I also had a good old rant at her about subsequent governments blaming problems of their making on the EU.

This is what pisses me off - many of us could see what was happening and tried to do something about it. Refusing to blame the bogeyman EU for stuff that is the UK governments fault isn't "not giving a shit". It's giving a shit about the correct cause of the problems being identified and held to account.

Yet somehow this mess is our fault for not "understanding" or "giving a shit"? I would assert that I give enough of a shit to identify those responsible for the respective issues and to try to do what I can to address the issues with them.

Perhaps it's those who didn't bother to look past the propaganda and find out the facts who don't give enough of a shit?

Sorry cross posted there

Very interesting malylis. Hmm.

SirChing
I think people not being able to grasp things like that, and blindly blaming the EU instead of the government and law enforcement, is what has given rise to people being called thick.

People were given a villain, they weren't blindly blaming anyone.
there was, believe it or not, a time when the government and media were trusted.

SirChing

the point is that is isn't as black and white as some people would have us believe.

And you as one person doing something, doesn't negate all those that didn't do anything till it was too late.

SirChing

Perhaps it's those who didn't bother to look past the propaganda and find out the facts who don't give enough of a shit?

And this is where your education numbers come in to it.
These are areas where fewer than 40% of pupils get 5 GCSEs above a C grade.

dreamingbohemian

Who were these immigrants being bused in? Do you mean asylum seekers?

These were immigrants that were spread across the country to share the cost, instead of it being paid for by those in the south east corner.

there was, believe it or not, a time when the government and media were trusted

Yes, I remember those times. However, it's been obvious for at least the past 30 years that our print media and commercial news stations reflect the bias of their owner, and will reflect the interests of the owner. That is not a secret.

If people are not able to bear that in mind and read or watch many sources to try and get to the truth, then that's not the fault of those of us who do.

This really feels as if you think those of us who bothered to find out the facts and understand the issues, tried to take appropriate action and inform others, are wrong for doing so.

It's totally crazy to blame the current situation, of the EU being blamed for domestic issues, on those of us who know the truth about it.

Would you prefer that we didn't find out the truth and just bleated about feelings, and blamed the wrong people so that the issues never get sorted?

Because I am genuinely at a total loss as to what you believe people such as me have done wrong. I refuse to believe lies and propaganda because I care too much that the issues are actually sorted. Should I be apologising for that or something?

*the point is that is isn't as black and white as some people would have us believe.

And you as one person doing something, doesn't negate all those that didn't do anything till it was too late*

Obviously. But how dare you falsely accuse me of not giving a shit until it affected me. That is far from the truth.

What rot are you talking.

The migrants in Boston came to work in the agricultural sector, no EU immigrants are "shared " across the country they come to worm. They were not bussed anywhere by the government.

Low wages? As said wages were low long before EU immigration.

Infrastructure? The population of Boston increased by about 8,000 people in ten years. Mainly due to the changes in agriculture, prior to that the population grew at certain times.

Want to talk about education ? EAL students im Boston overwhelmingly are making the expected progress ( there is a whole dashboard you can go a look at this stuff on) in fact they make higher progress than the "all students" category. In fact the schools that have low numbers of EAL students perform worse.

Boston, as with other rural areas has very low attainment from white working class boys.

Lets talk about Boston, where in 2001 immigration was the biggest concern in the town when 2 percent of the population were non British.

There were no EU immigrants "shared out"

See this stuff utterly undermines your reasoning.

And this is where your education numbers come in to it
These are areas where fewer than 40% of pupils get 5 GCSEs above a C grade

I totally agree with you and that is a shocking indictment of our education system.

But that does not make that those that ARE able to research things wrong. Nor does it justify hostility towards them. Again, you said I don't understand. I disagree. The problem is that people such as me understand all too well, and it's the people who believe that the wrong people caused the wrong problems that aren't understanding. If their education was poor then that is not their fault. But don't tell us we don't understand when it's not us who believe propaganda and lies.

These were immigrants that were spread across the country to share the cost, instead of it being paid for by those in the south east corner

That is wholly untrue. Economic migrants with freedom of movement can go where they like. The people who were shared out were asylum seekers and refugees, neither of whom are allowed to work until their applications have been processed. If they were working, that's on the farmer and gangmaster taking advantage of desperate people as their benefits are circa £40 per week, and the farmer and gangmaster should have been reported to the police.

That is the square root of fuck all to do with freedom of movement.

Yes this is a good illustration of the problem. Boney shared a narrative that would explain a lot, but malylis has provided a lot of facts that contradict it. So for those of us who don't know Boston, who should we believe?

I tend to believe facts, it's not that I'm not listening, but a factual argument just seems more credible.

Some seem to want a narrative to fit with their understanding. And now Boston, Llincs is being checked out for low white attainment. Really? How is this helping?
Honestly, you don't have to dig that deep to comprehend Brexit. There is a massive divide of sentiment in the UK and the healing needs to start. People need to listen to each other.

Not some, all.

malylis
There were no EU immigrants "shared out"

See this stuff utterly undermines your reasoning.

It was a cost sharing exercise by the government. you don't believe it, great good for you.

I also will throw this there just for a quick read.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36258541

It may shed some more light on the situation.

I don't claim that the people of Boston are correct.
You asked for a reason why people voted the way that they did.

dreamingbohemian

Don't be to sure of malylis's facts.

But there is a divide between those that have lived this and those that just want to look at the data.

And as I pointed out data doesn't prevent the 40 + years of propaganda, when people are just being condescending about it.

I will point out that the condescending in there wasn't aimed at anyone but from my previous post.

Boston is a big issue, people have been making claims about it all through the referendum.

Little digging finds that the secondary schools in Boston that are requires improvement and cause for concern have lower than average numbers of EAL students and have a majority of students are white British with other ethnic minorities below average too.

This stuff is accessible.

@mykingdom we are listening. It's just that the vast majority of what is being said is either factually incorrect or based on feelings.

You could obviously vote however you chose, but I am very pissed off to be leaving the EU based on the piss poor reasoning given on this thread. Vote according to your feelings all you want, but don't expect people who prefer to deal with facts to share them.

All this rubbish about "start healing" is pissing most remainers off even more. How can we heal when we are losing rights, jobs and security, because someone voted their "feelings".

It might make you feel more comfortable for us to move on, but I am afraid that just isn't up to you. Those of us who deal with facts and whose lives will be directly affected by this are furious. Why the hell should we pull together? And why in the world should we try to understand when all our concerns have been dismissed as project fear, yet we are the ones who will invariably be adversely affected by your vote.

You don't get to magic out anger away. You voted for it, you won, live with the consequences.