To find SOME Brexiteer gloating embarrassing?

[SirChing]

I have read threads saying that we have left and "nothing has happened, just like the millennium bug".

Well, that'll be because we are transition so the No Deal situation has been avoided - for now.

And the millennium bug didn't happen because loads of IT people worked their arses off for years to prevent it.

I have read a rant about us needing new passports for this summer costing £1000, due to remained MPs and civil servants wanting to "punish" leavers.

I am cringing at the level of gloating and "so nerr" posts on here, flinging about bollocks as facts, and celebrating something which noone seems to be able to demonstrate any positives for.

Just me?

BoneyBackJefferson this is your reasoning?
‘
People have spoken about immigration for years and got called racist and little Englander.
People have had jobs taken from them by illegal work gangs and unscrupulous farmers etc.etc.

Illegal workers are not usually from the EU who have a right to remain and work in the UK. So that bit about illegal work gangs is not because of the EU, is it?
Immigration has a very small impact on wages (according to research by a Oxford university). There is very little impact on U.K. workers employment prospects. European migration has been good for Britain, raising economic performance and improving the public finances.

I think the problem is that the impact on wages, housing and employment has not been evenly spread. Poor areas with many unwaged families are likely to have more immigrants. They see immigrants in work and feel they have stolen their jobs. They haven’t, of course, but a life of poverty alongside people who speak a different language and are earning means the immigrant gets blamed when the real cause is appalling government policy and austerity as a principle.

Unfortunately the demographics of voting patterns mean the people most susceptible to the Brexit propaganda (and it was propaganda) are the ones who are likely to be worst affected. They sadly saw Farage as a chap who listened and was on their side when nothing could be further from the truth. The reason it is almost impossible to articulate a good reason for leaving is because there aren’t any. It’s all Emperor’s new clothes. The impact won’t be felt until we actually leave. Sadly I think many believe we have already left and it’s fine.

@ColumbaPalumbus 10k a week? That's obscene! How dare she voice that in a country where even working people are being forced to use food banks.

And if she is so poor, how the hell could she afford a party?

@malysis talking nonsense, the West Midlands particularly in the Black Country was almost 70% leave and you don't get much more multi cultural than there.

@CherryPavlova great post.

CherryPavlova

My reasoning is that it is all linked. Brexit didn't happen it a bubble the lead up to it has been 40+ years coming.

It started very much as illegal workers, by the time FoM had come in to play a lot of agricultural jobs had been lost to the cheap labour gangs, and even now some farmers and gang masters work hard at paying the system.

And I agree with your last paragraph entirely. But a 1 year campaign basically calling them names wasn't going to cure all tghe ills that the propaganda caused.

@SirChing

Apology accepted but you still are not showing understanding.

Oh that's not the half of it. She has rotating 24 hour nannies and posts how tired she is of mothering like a she's a martyr. Beware if you go down the rabbit hole of her insta and the news stories it's one wild ride and her posts become even more offensive in context....she was flummoxed that anyone would unfollow her over her "opinion". Cuz a super-rich lady throwing a party of brexit was going to go down well...tone deaf doesn't quite capture it

Do you think the West Midlands vote was one against multi culturalism?

Which bit of Europe do the non UK communities in the west Midlands come from?

In fact @CherryPavlova, taking your point further, if the government had proportionately reinvested the tax paid by immigrants in the areas in which they lived, this may have improved things. More homes, GP appointments and school places would have then been able to keep pace with demand.

But again, that's our own crappy governments fault, rather than the EU's. And the Tories have had 10 years to do that and didn't bother, preferring to blame the EU.

Blair was also a prat for not instigating the safeguards which would have prevented lots of immigration from Eastern Europe in a very short space of time. The safeguards would have paced it a bit.

And all governments have been crap at not removing those immigrants who aren't self supporting within three months, as other countries such as Belgium do.

All these issues are due to immigration from the EU, BUT we had the tools to sort it all along. Our governments just didn't use them. And now the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater. I am furious with our politicians for their lies and ineptitude, and really pissed off that so many people fell for their propaganda.

Okay right here on this thread: we are listening.

We hear you when you say that opposition to multiculturalism was a reason to vote leave. We hear that.

The problem is that many of us genuinely cannot understand why multiculturalism is a problem. Britain has always been multicultural and it doesn't bother us.

So after listening, we have questions. What's wrong with multiculturalism?

You then refuse to explain it further, but get upset with us for not listening. But we are listening!

malylis

Maybe you should ask a leaver from the west midlands.

You may have noticed we are all not one hive mind.

I suspect that 'not listening' really means 'not blindly agreeing with us' , but 'not listening' sounds more legitimate

The problem with talking about agriculture is that agri jobs have always been low paid, and looking at the data across 30 odd years average wages in this sector have stayed at a similar gap between other average wages.

Furthermore agriculture has changed dramatically in the last 30 years to be all year round rather than seasonal due to winter planting/crops polytunnel growing etc. The old ways of people being in tural areas seasonally has ended.

I agree the vote was a long time coming, it still doesn't mean the reasons behind it are good

Apology accepted but you still are not showing understanding

What am I not understanding?

I hear this a lot about people's reasons to vote leave. That those who voted remain should listen and try to understand. And i agree. But there seems to be very little interest in those who voted leave understanding the concerns of remainers. Our concerns tend to be dismissed as "opinion not fact", "project fear" etc.

It is really hard to even begin to show understanding when my concerns about whether my medication will be available if we no deal, are dismissed and laughed at. Especially as Matt Hancock has said people will die if we no deal.

I don't know why some leavers give the impression that they have been so badly done to.

I agree. Not listening means that we aren't agreeing.

What's the issue with multiculturalism?

I know Asian communities in the Midlands were persuaded to vote leave by the promise of more visas from India, Bangladesh and Pakistan.

@CherryPavlova You are probably correct that some people listened to Farage for the reasons stated. But that doesn't give the whole picture.
Not all leavers fall into that category, not by a long chalk. Just as one can't group remainers together.

dreamingbohemian

I can only answer for some from the area that I am originally from.

Boston was and still is one of the lowest areas in the country, the government decided that they would put immigrants there.

They did this with no real consultation, no increase in funds and gave no help to the local communities infrastructure.

They just bused people in and left a deprived area with few jobs in more of a mess.

If the government had helped, asked or even did this on a smaller scale it wouldn't have been such a problem.

The link to this and Brexit is...
Can you guess who the government blamed?

malylis

You don't have to agree with the reasons, you don't even have to think that they are good.

But they are still some of the reasons.

As for the wages, The farmers pay the gang masters, (farmers books good), the gang master pays the workers, (books not so good), then the farmer/gang master charges the workers bed, board and lodgings getting money back for sub par accommodation.

And yes these are reported and raided and even sometimes sorted out but it doesn't solve the issue.

malylis

And some of us have no problem with FoM at all.

Oh well Columba if you say so. It’s definitely propaganda you’re such an expert. How dare British people vote in a way that they think is in their best interest.

I voted out as did my son of immigrants husband. A high proportion of my DH work collegues voted out despite being immigrants/ children of immigrants. I’m talking surgeons, doctors and nursing staff.

I reluctantly voted out because I don’t like the direction the EU is taking and their reluctance of change.

@BoneyBackJefferson Being able to see who is really responsible for the negative aspects of freedon of movement doesn't equate to not understanding.

In fact, I would argue that the people who didn't understand where those who blindly accepted the government and media insistence that the issues were caused by the EU.

Yet somehow, that is the fault of those of us who troubled ourselves to find out the facts, for not "understanding".

Remainers explained all this stuff prior to the referendum so many times and were told we were wrong. We voted against leaving the EU, recognising that they are not responsible for our domestic governments failings. Yet it is us that don't understand? How?

The responsibility for this mess lies with the government, media, and those who blindly believed the propaganda rather than bothering to think and research for themselves. So how does remainers "not understanding" come into it?

Boston is always held up as an example.

So lets talk about Boston.

The Government didn't decide to put immigrants there at all, they were brought in by the agri industries.

Boston has very low levels of unemployment, even now much lower than the national average.

Boston has always had significantly lower average wages than the national average, mainly because of the large number or unskilled/low skill jobs that have always been prevalent in the areas. The difference between the national average and the Boston average is the same now as it was in the 90s.

In the early 2000s Boston was due to lose its maternity ward, it has now kept it because the birth rate has increased.

98 percent or children in Boston get their first choice school.

Rents have got higher, but are still lower than the Lincolnshire average. However this is due to the changing nature of agriculture being year round rather than seasonal. More employees are permanent.

Lets talk about Boston where they claim crime is up but according to the local council and police that isn't true.

Lets talk about Boston eh?

SirChing

You may understand the words but you don't understand the effect that it has had on people.

Remainers explained all this stuff prior to the referendum so many times and were told we were wrong. We voted against leaving the EU, recognising that they are not responsible for our domestic governments failings. Yet it is us that don't understand? How?

Because you only gave a shit when it affected you directly.

Is it you that is fond of the "only 2% cared" pre-referendum data sound bite?
One year of you saying things does not negate years of not being listen to, it does not negate a campaign calling you thick and racist, when you are still trying to be heard and those "explaining" things are still calling you thick and racist whilst "explaining" things to you.

I use "explaining" instead of being condescending and patronising.

Well said Boney well said.

"You only gave a shit when it effected you directly"

What do you mean? All the leave voting areas elected their own MPs for decades. Leaving the EU wasn't high on any agenda until after 2010.