To find SOME Brexiteer gloating embarrassing?

[SirChing]

I have read threads saying that we have left and "nothing has happened, just like the millennium bug".

Well, that'll be because we are transition so the No Deal situation has been avoided - for now.

And the millennium bug didn't happen because loads of IT people worked their arses off for years to prevent it.

I have read a rant about us needing new passports for this summer costing £1000, due to remained MPs and civil servants wanting to "punish" leavers.

I am cringing at the level of gloating and "so nerr" posts on here, flinging about bollocks as facts, and celebrating something which noone seems to be able to demonstrate any positives for.

Just me?

Oh come on @mykingdom, This is a stupid comment: "I don't see a direct connection between my leave the EU vote and someone's father suffering subsequent prejudice from another leave voter."

I didn't say anything about your general level of education, I'm saying that that is a stupid comment, because it is very naive.

There is a problem with 'our country first' as an ideology, it's not a comment on you personally, or your intelligence to point that out. It's the truth.

@SirChing
Ok, firstly 'not listening' was one of the reasons many people felt disconnected and this swayed their voting. That thought process was a growing discontent with government, the weak opposition, the perception of the EU increasing its power and the widespread 'political correctness' and liberal elitism. No one listened to the 'man on the street' or so it was felt.
So....up comes a chance for that for a turnaround. A now or never chance to make a stand. The rest could be done at the ballot box couldn't it? No. Because people felt the main parties were not representative of them either.
Referendum day comes. Get the EU off our backs, send that shock wave and show our politicians we are not all London centric and multicultural.
The more the opponents dug in, the more people felt it was right to shed the additional shackles of a Common Market gone bad.
You not listening here and now on a MN thread is irrelevant. But it was multifactorial and a marker for change. The timing was important too. A beginning of being heard. A new start. A protest vote even, for many 'ignored' people.

Thats the problem with "not listening" what are you supposed to listen to?

We're not all London centric and multicultural?

You mean we don't like immigrants.

...and before anyone mentions my username, it is an abridged version of 'my kingdom for a horse' :)

What on earth is this liberal elitism that is so despised ? The elitism not so good but liberal is a description that people seem to have grabbed onto and use willy nilly. Liberal values I thought were a generally positive thing ... fair play, equality, non judgemental ?

@malylis No, politicians were not listening. Over years.
And no again, Londoncentric concerns are a real issue. And so is multiculturalism. To some degree. Whether you agree or not.
However, again we are getting side tracked with a single issue when I have clearly stated there are multiple reasons for so many people voting to leave the EU.

Why is multiculturalism a concern?

Funnily enough the EU was one of the biggest regional funders. Why did people have an issue with the EU when it isn't Londoncentric?

Lets have the issues that are really to do with the EU?

How is the EU to do with multiculturalism?

Katharinblum

Liberal values I thought were a generally positive thing ... fair play, equality, non judgemental?

And they would be if they were the values used.

@Katharinblum liberal elitism is not liberal values and tolerance. Please don't be obtuse. The very hallmark of this is the judgemental attitude displayed so beautifully here. You only need to look at the election and how people voted Corbyn into political oblivion.

malylis
Lets have the issues that are really to do with the EU?

How is the EU to do with multiculturalism?

It is to do with the EU because the various governments and press (and social media) have used the EU as an easy scapegoat, and has been since its conception.

Propaganda is an powerful tool that cannot be stopped just because it is no longer in the governments interests, nor can it be stopped by a campaign not based on policies but on calling people thick and racist.

I'm not Nigel Farage!! I don't know every reason, twist and turn in the country's decision to opt out of the EU :)
I'm just trying to give you my insight as rationally and politely as possible as I am a leaver and know many others. I also know many remainers.

Its funny how you right wingers are now talking about how it was liberal values that lost labout votes.

Why didn't it lose them votes two years earlier?

Oh that's right cause you are being revisionist and talking rubbish.

It was Brexit that did for Labour, plus Corbyn dithering about it, nothing more.

@mykingdom In what way is multiculturalism a concern? The UK has been multicultural since at least Roman times. Would you like this to stop? Why? Can you articulate exactly what is the problem with movements of peoples?

@BoneyBackJefferson 'And they would be if they were the values used.' Are they not? The remainers roughly stand by these values. Majority holding these views are not 'elite' by any measure. What are your alternate values, can you state them here?

Also, the areas with the largest amounts immigrant populations voted remain.

Non multicultural areas voted leave.

@mykingdom ' The very hallmark of this is the judgemental attitude displayed so beautifully here' Where is it displayed? I can't see any judgements being made, I see screams of 'judgemental' when people beg to differ with you, and you do it so that you don't have to enter into a reasoned argument - which you would probably lose.

@Ofthread

Are they not? The remainers roughly stand by these values.

Roughly yes, some seem to have misunderstood non judgemental and even equality.

What are your alternate values, can you state them here?

why? what would it bring to the discussion?

malylis

I will point you towards Boston. An area that has multiculturalism that was one of the highest leave votes.

I could explain why but you wouldn't listen.

@malylis You picked out one reason 'liberal elitism' and have run with i to your own conclusion that I'm talking rubbish. I am giving answers others have given me. I don't ever vote for Labour myself but can see why they bombed recently.
@ofthread If you don't know the answer to that, it's beyond my scope.The Roman invasion and subsequent migration is a pretty lame argument in the modern world. Turn that about face and we can ask why on earth we brits can't have free movement in Europe unless we are 'in it'!

I think it would bring a lot of clarity to the discussion if each side could be less opaque about what exactly the values are that they are bringing to the discussion. When people cry racism, for example, what is your defence? I haven't heard anything convincing from the leavers. State precisely what is wrong with multiculturalism or with international cooperation so that we can all understand where you are coming from.

I asked about multiculturalism and London centric issues too. You haven't answered those questions.

My point regarding Labour is spot on. If it was progressive values that put people off then why did Corbyn win a far larger share of the vote in 2017?

Brexit was the reason. People claiming liberal values later as a reason are doing so for their own revisionist reasons.

@mykingdom No, I'd like you to state the answer, so that we can all be clear about what exactly you are saying and decide whether it is, in fact, racist or intolerant. If it isn't then what's the problem?

What is the problem with multiculturalism?

@BoneyBackJefferson My apologies, I shouldn't have said noone is saying why, because you did. Illegal crime gangs and farmers I think.

@mykingdom - Ok, thank you. You have also now given some reasons. I am not sure what a growing discontent with our government and a weak opposition had to do with the EU? Did people really vote leave because of domestic politics? I wonder how they thought leaving the EU would have any bearing on changing the domestic government? That, I really don't understand.

It's also our domestic UK government which have been London-centric. The EU has pumped more money than the UK gov ever has into our deprived regions, to try and rebalance the disparities. So voting to leave the EU and leave the government to address regional inequalities is a bit of an own goal.

I am also perplexed at political correctness and liberal elitism being a reason. Particularly when countries like Poland and Hungary are really quite right wing and far less politically correct, thereby showing that the EU has nothing to do with it. Unless people objected to EU- wide anti discrimination laws. In which case that doesn't make the voter look very good.

So, from all the points you have made, the only one which seems to relate to the EU is the perception of them having more control. I can understand this to a degree, as subsequent governments have blamed their own failings on the EU, when it has been nothing to do with the EU. But I guess if the government's and media tell people often enough that things are the fault of the EU, they can't then complain when people believe it.

It's just so sad, because when you actually look at the EU laws, our power of veto, the fact that we have supported 97% of the EU laws passed - the facts, I suppose - the truth is nothing like the image which the media and government peddled.

One of the only advantages to leaving, that I can see, is that governments now will no longer be able to blame things unfairly on the EU. Even BoJo has said that. The UK Gov will have to own their own actions finally (although no doubt for the next 10 year's they will blame everything on the EU being "tricky to leave", rather than what they want being the political equivalent of the moon on a stick!

If you really want to see some spectacular arsehollery check out Alexandra tolstoys Instagram. I used to follow her because we considered going on one of her horse riding trips but she's so unbearable....she was left by her oligarch husband and plead poverty to the court saying she couldn't live on 10k a WEEK. She threw a brexit party because why wouldn't the rich really?