To be shocked by people's partners?

[ReallyLilyReally]

SO MANY of the threads i read about new parents include women struggling hugely to cope with their babies, and when asked if there's a DP on the scene who can help, they say that he's just not interested/won't do night feeds/is too busy etc and that theyve already tried to get him to pitch in and he won't.

Call me stupid, but i cannot for the life of me work out why these women have had kids with men they can't rely on for support. What the hell kind of decision making is that? AIBU to think that it's bad parenting to knowingly give a kid a useless dad?

@CapnSquirrel I'm really sorry to hear this. This is my worry aswell. There are quite a few things that I think are obvious but I worry that not everyone will think so. And you might not even think of asking cause they are obvious.

I recently had a conversation with my bf and I made a reference about being in the delivery room. He was genuinely confused that he was expected to be there, he thought men were not allowed. I also talked about parental leave. He was unaware that paternity leave exists and when he heared my brother (not in uk) was home for a year and loved it, it opened my bf's eyes. He is not very man/woman divided but he has no examples of families around and his dad was not nurturing so he has no examples. Whereas fathers around me do 50/50 by default and it's not even a question and I kind of assume that it's how everyone is. Therefore we both have "opposite" views are the obvious thing that people do.

I do think as well a friendly chat with the vicar or priest in Ye olden days prior to marriage was helpful for both parties. Maybe some sort of pre marriage counseling saved plenty of people from signing up to a life of misery.
I also think many people just are not suited to parenthood and forcing them is not going to end well for anyone

' I think in some cases you can absolutely blame the man’s mother for bringing him up to believe that women are here to serve men. '

Always the woman's fault isn't it.

My STB EXH went off the rails basically once we had our child, he was out all the time and made it very clear he suddenly did not want to be someone with responsibilities. I had zero inkling he was going to be like this beforehand and we tried for a very long time to conceive so it's not as though the baby was a surprise. I really dont think it fair to blame women with crap partners for their partners not stepping up when the baby is born.

So if the man is useless it’s the woman’s fault? Away you go

Thanks Rezie I think the fact you are discussing these things with your bf will go a long way. How did he react when you said about your brother? Positive/negative? He might just be unfamiliar with these concepts not necessarily opposed to them. Most people, men especially, just don't know what's involved with childbirth/paternity leave etc until they have to so I wouldn't necessarily worry too much.

I'd keep the conversation open and if you do decide to have DC together I would make sure to explicitly discuss expectations surrounding parenting long beforehand. Down to the very basics - division of housework, how you'd manage when your DC was sick, drop offs and pick ups from nursery, would you share night feeds etc etc. if you go into it with these things clearly defined it's much more likely to run smoothly. If he shows resistance to the idea of this level of equality then you'll have your answer and should move on quick sharp! Good luck

Call me stupid, but I cannot for the life of me work out why these women have had kids with men they can't rely on for support. What the hell kind of decision making is that? AIBU to think that it's bad parenting to knowingly give a kid a useless dad?

You're stupid (you did ask for this) and naive at best, misogynistic and dangerous for perpetuating such nonsense at worst.

How about working out why 'these men' had kids when they knew they couldn't be relied upon for support? Once you figure that out you'd be perfectly reasonable to think it's bad parenting of the Dad's to knowingly give a child a useless father.

Never victim blame, you never know when life will shit on you through no fault of your own.
I hope your life works out as perfectly as you believe you've made it so far

@GiveHerHellFromUs - I received the same message a while ago, but the women-knocking still goes on. Exactly how is this thread supportive of and kind to women, @MNHQ?

Inliverpool1 agree.

I think that the disappearance of family investment in a coupling, while very problematic in many ways, brings some downsides.

I blame religion for a lot of life's problems and I think a priest is probably the last person I would want to take advice from before a wedding.

And yet... there is something about that culture whereby the whole family and community was invested in the marriage - not just the couple involved -- which did bring with it a wider sense of what it was all about.

I wonder if we could create a system of almost mentoring people in a progressive, non-sexist and non mumbo jumbo way about what to expect on the practical side it would be helpful.

I think in some cases you can absolutely blame the man’s mother for bringing him up to believe that women are here to serve men

And what about his father? Can't you absolutely blame his father for not showing him the same thing? IME when it comes to housework/childrearing men are mostly influenced by what their father modelled for them. So if we're going to throw blame around I'd place it firmly at the feet of their fathers for not showing them equality in the home. Stop blaming women for the ills of patriarchy.

Ah and the OP has disappeared - back to her ivory tower no doubt

I do get the temptation to blame sexist MILs but let's face it, the sons have rejected the toilet doilies, the Daily Express and the tight lipped sexual morals because we don't live in 1975 any more, I'm sure they can ditch the macho shite of their upbringing too.

Women grew up in these houses too.

MorrisZapp I wholly agree -- having grown up with a 1950s style domestic set up isn't a get out of jail card for sons to lapse into those roles once they have a family.

But I do think the family dynamic in which you grew up has an influence on your expectations in family life, at least at a subconscious level. If you saw your mum endlessly running around wiping your dad's arse a degree of deprogramming is necessary.

The more self aware among us will consciously address this and hopefully get past it but we can't just leave it to the most enlightened. Sometimes these things need an external push.

I think in some cases you can absolutely blame the man’s mother for bringing him up to believe that women are here to serve men.

Why not blame the fathers? My husband would not tolerate DS thinking that I'm here to serve men.

Where I come from, people take partial guilt when their unlocked car is stolen. You are supposed to lock your car! You are not the thief, but you take partial guilt.

This is not victim blaming.

YANBU & YABU

Think it’s down to circumstance however, some women are so desperate to have children they’ll take anyone and then expect them to change. They are deluded chumps.

Notsoimp sorry but that is a completely bollocks metaphor.

Failing to lock your own car is a binary thing: its a basic bit of safeguarding which everyone can undertake.

Choosing a man who you can guarantee will be a hands-on parent, a sensitive partner and a believer in equality is like alchemy. There are nine pages of people on here describing how they were completely blindsided by their partner's transition at pregnancy or after birth from a supposedly progressive partner to an entitled slob. What do you suggest people do? Is there a DNA test you can take which shows you who is going to turn into an arsehole?

Thepeopleversuswork, I agree with your general point.

But from what I see A LOT of women have children with men where it was completely obvious beforehand that he will not do half of the childrearing. They do not write this here often, granted.

I agree with some previous poster, many women are desperate to have children and just selfishly have children with unsuitable men.

My best friend had 4DC with her DH, happy r'ship, seemed great together. Then he started a new job, met "the love of his life" there, packed up and left with no warning. Transferred with the company, leaving her a single mother of 4 DC under 10 and didn't see the DC again. Nobody could have predicted that, least of all her.

YABU.

I think there’s also a chance that some of the posts where the OP is blindsided when their DC is very little and their partner really doesn’t step up well (if at all) can be that brief window of complete resentment that understandably builds when you’re sleep deprived and nothing seems fair because your brain is in complete survival mode (if that makes sense?).

I had twins as my first, I was overwhelmed by the constant battle of no sleep, poor feeding and health issues for DD who was on oxygen at home after both twins spent 4 months in NICU to low birth weight.

I really had hoped DH would step up a hell of a lot more than he did and I’ll admit - it nearly broke us - thing is he was shit, he did change nappies, enjoy spending time with them, do feeds and what have you, but for a brief window in the evening after work and then he’d disappear into the bedroom at 8pm like clockwork every night, never came back down no matter how much the twins cried (or I cried), feigned ignorance to the crying the next day due to being ‘asleep’. So yeah, he was shit, he admits he was shit and continues to apologise for that and has improved hugely since it lead to the inevitable blow up from me about how he needed to grow the fuck up and laid out (for the fifth and final time) what I expected of him.

If I’d come to Mumsnet before this was resolved I would have been in the statistic of ‘women who have kids with shit men’. But DH isn’t a shit man, nor is he a shit Father - he had a period of being shit and then we sorted it. We’re all much happier now and he’s not regressed.

So whilst I agree with PP’s about abusers showing their true colours during pregnancy/after children arrive. I do wonder if there’s a proportion of women who also manage to resolve it with their partner. I could be wrong but that was my experience anyway

Notsoimp there is an element of that I grant you.But nowhere near enough of that to explain the huge outpouring of frustration on here by women who feel cheated by the way their partners changed after the arrival of children.

I refer to my previous point that we all should do far more due diligence before coupling with people as to what is involved in family life.

When I became a single parent one of my cousins kept wondering whose fault it was. It was like they didn't believe what I said and I had to keep reiterating he had been violent. Over and over. Disapproving of a single parent status.

My aunt also was quite questioning in the beginning. She kept asking how many hours was I working as my family do not believe in benefits. They are extremely snobbish and disapproving. She had also been a single parent so did understand many of the issues but in her circumstances her husband had died so society tends to condone this type of single parent more than those who have to ask their men to leave.

I also think out of the women who choose unsuitable partners it may be that they have no idea how much work it entails raising children and that it is much easier to be wise after the event.

NaviSprite you make a very valid point.

I have seen a number of couples split because of this.