To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

Gosh, there are some jolly rum posts on this thread, aren't there, people?

Is this how you were expecting the thread to go, @Jargoyle?
It's turned into quite a lively debate (for the most part) about er... stuff, hasn't it?

But should we have a special board for posters who don't want any interaction at all, do you think? Some sort of an 'Irrebuttable Statements' board, where no one is allowed to comment on or question anyone's opinion or interact with their posts at all?

Or maybe just an 'Irritable Statements' board, where posters can let off steam.

Or how about 'Irritable and Irrebuttable'? Or 'Am I Being Irrebuttable?'

Anyone?

If we all start demanding that we have forums where only the views we personally want to see or read are posted, there will end up having to be almost as many separate forums as there are members.

I think that's what some posters would like, @Snugglepumpkin.

Could we have a board called 'Last Word For Lost Souls', or similar?

But should we have a special board for posters who don't want any interaction at all, do you think? Some sort of an 'Irrebuttable Statements' board, where no one is allowed to comment on or question anyone's opinion or interact with their posts at all?

Flouncer's corner?

Ooh, I forgot about FC, @Melroses. Thing is, with FC you can't return with more Irrebuttables, can you? Your chances to quiveringly implore that others respect your right to spout your opinions as the last word and without any sort of come back are a bit limited on that one.

Well, there's always "and another thing...…….." but I suppose the intention is to be seen to leave.

Irrebuttable Statements sounds grand enough.

PityParty4one you asked an age ago What the heck is anti trans? and you've already had good answers, but I'd still like to throw my tuppence in;

Anti-trans is pro-woman rebranded.

Pottytrainingwoes re your statement "One article in 2017 out of the hundreds of thousands of bits of literature over time. Given the NHS website itself still clearly refers to pregnant women I’d say it’s a bit hyperbolic to claim you are being told it’s exclusionary to say pregnant women"

Do you think if the government sent out an edict to say all literature containing the words that mean female (adult or child) should be replaced immediately with sex neutral terms, that there wouldn't be a huge public outcry?
Everything that's been gained by TRAs to date has been by stealth, and piggybacking.
Changing guidelines and influencing guidance piecemeal will mean one day, we'll turn around and the words we use to make women a discreet group will be gone.

If you don't want the frog to know he's being cooked, boil him slowly.

Oo ooo ooooo

I'm claiming my Irrebuttable Statements rights.

So I have the last word.

Word!

Bunnyfuller
FYI contradicting yourself invariably prompts people to ask for clarification.
Now that we understand your position I do not think the risk of people engaging with you is minimal.

I think Flouncers corner would work admirably because, let's face it, they rarely stick the flounce.

Unless this is less about wanting those discussions, and more about whining about FWR

Surely not!

Okay. If you insist on reducing feminism to this one issue then go for it.

Without a clear definition of woman or female, without some care for women and girls, how can we protect women's rights? Who would bother?

The thing that shocked me, on the behind the scenes stuff. Was the docs / Comms between NHS and govt, from, the late 90s or something. Years ago anyway. When the govt were going on about single sex wards and making promises. But they were to be single gender. And when NHS said ??? are you sure. Govt said yes, but refer to it as single sex so as not to confuse the public ..

That really freaked me out a bit tbh. This has been a long game for some.

I think comments like this are why separate boards are needed. It’s like we are from parallel universes.

I'm not on twitter and, for the most part, couldn't care less what rage TRAs get into on there.

I do care about laws being changed, protocols disappearing, and the push to replace sex with gender legally.

The thing is, if you haven't read about it much and it hasn't impacted you, you may not really care.

Until you do. Until it is definitely personal. Or you have avenues that you assumed were open to you, closed off.

I totally understand why it seems like a 'parallel universe'. Partly because it is currently affecting vulnerable women mostly. Those in shelters, prisons, refuges, mental health wards, etc. And partly because if you haven't actually encountered it, it seems a little mad.

This is why many women are so passionate about it. The scepticism is frustrating.

(Still doesn't bother me if there is a separate board.)

But i think the difference is that those posters may say they have no problem with transwomen in the toilets for example ...but they appreciate that other women may have a problem, and they are supportive of that

Yes that's it, pretty much, Rufus. Being dismissive of other people's concerns about their rights is always likely to get a hostile response.

I think idea of op saying, let's discuss this topic free of commentary going down GC route would be great.

I do agree that this issue impacts everything but, there are plenty of threads on GC, and it would be good to discuss the other issues as well. Remember why fwr came together in the beginning, and maybe regroup and refresh or something.

Just a thought, not entirely sober so ok if doesn't fly!

Just to illustrate to any interested lurkers why this issue is so important to FWR, it's worth reading these two enlightening threads:

Read the recent posts on this first one from the update by "GirlontheRoof" a few days ago:

Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3731052-Center-Parcs-upholding-single-sex-spaces

New Year New Judicial Review? CPS Hate Crime Guidance for schools
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3804613-New-Year-New-Judicial-Review-CPS-Hate-Crime-Guidance-for-schools

I totally understand why it seems like a 'parallel universe'. Partly because it is currently affecting vulnerable women mostly. Those in shelters, prisons, refuges, mental health wards, etc. And partly because if you haven't actually encountered it, it seems a little mad.

It's also affecting children in schools. If you want to see how mad this has become read the thread about the CPS guidance. New guidance which can only be seen by teachers, not parents.

Here you go. Four places you can discuss feminism that are not FWR. Available right now, here on MN, under the “chat” tab.. what are people waiting for?

Genuine question. Why are people here who dislike FWR complaining about it - instead of ignoring it and posting on another feminist board?

Without a clear definition of woman or female, without some care for women and girls, how can we protect women's rights? Who would bother?

I don't need government approval to be a feminist. People can use words however they like, the same issues will exist.

I have a lot of sympathy for the gc position (oh no! I used to say I was a GC feminist and I just typed that!) but I don't understand your argument at all. Why give the opposition so much power? If feminism can be destroyed so easily with just a spot of semantics indeed, why bother. But it's not so weak.

People can use words however they like, the same issues will exist.

They will, but they'll just be invisible. How do you combat sexism if sex no longer exists? How do you protect women and girls if any man can become a woman just by saying he is one?

I don't need government approval to be a feminist. People can use words however they like, the same issues will exist.

Spectacular point missing there, well done.

People can use words however they like, the same issues will exist.

Oh yes, who needs words with societal accepted meanings. Our pesky forebears developing a common language so we could communicate ideas.

Why give the opposition so much power? If feminism can be destroyed so easily with just a spot of semantics indeed, why bother.

I don't know why you think we're giving the opposition power when we're fighting against them. Laws are made of words. Words do have power.

For instance, the issues facing pregnant people are exactly the same as the issues facing pregnant mothers and pregnant women because those are the same people. All those terms are accurate, pregnant mothers are indeed pregnant people. It would be possible to advocate for them using any of those terms. People preferring one or the other does not in any way prevent that.

Here you go. Four places you can discuss feminism that are not FWR. Available right now, here on MN, under the “chat” tab.. what are people waiting for?

Genuine question. Why are people here who dislike FWR complaining about it - instead of ignoring it and posting on another feminist board?

Nobody posts on those boards. They are full of tumble weed.