To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

@SmileEachDay

I don’t think about the gender ID debate. I don’t wonder why some feminists are so focused on the issue.

For me there is no issue. Far more important for me are men who identify as men and who treat other women like shit. But actually, I have an issue with anyone who treats anyone like shit. The motives are irrelevant for me - be nice, be kind. It isn’t that difficult.

I am not telling anyone what to say or what not to say. But I won’t get into a posting ping pong to anyone attempting to demolish my views and outlook. Anyone can question as much as they like, but actually most of the questions are usually sarcastic, patronising verging on spiteful jibes at the other view. I won’t respond to that.

I don’t want to shut down those who have different views to me on these areas, I just do not see everything revolving around it. And my life is too short and too intense to get bothered if someone wants slightly different labelling (for instance).

I don’t think anyone’s suggested a ban.

As many like to point out, most GC people don’t want a debate, more of a ‘fact find’ with other like minded people. So this wouldn’t affect that and I’d hope regulars would post across the boards if they had relevant views!

Do you mean that eg if there is a news story about abortion that people want to discuss, they can post either in the one with GC or the one without GC? So potentially 2 threads, won't that water things down and further push apart women who agree with each other on wider women's rights?

You wouldn't post 'Recommend a good brand of cat litter' in 'The Tack Room'

Of course not because a cat is not a horse. Unless maybe I put a saddle on the cat would it be a horse then

Put another way, if you have four existing topics in FWR which have a GC consensus, what would be your reason for wanting to post GC views in a fifth topic which was aimed at people who either didn't share that consensus, or did share it but didn't want to discuss it?

I post on whatever threads interest me.
I post my pov and opinion on the subject or I reference my knowledge and experience.

If in the new topic there was a post I was interested in I would post. I would not immediately turn it in to trans post but if there was something that was relevant and added to the thread or backed up my opinion that referenced trans people then I would mention it.
You are saying on the new topic I would not be allowed to do that. Which I assume would get my post deleted therefore silencing me and effectively banning me from posting.

Bunnyfuller thank you for responding.

Ok - you don’t wonder why feminists who have been feministing for decades are suddenly very, very worried about this stuff? Can I ask you to wonder for a minute now? Why do you think we’re so focussed?

What you want is a topic within feminisim banning GC feminisit posters from mentioning trans on a thread when its relevant because the trans movement is negatively affecting abortion, women's reproductive health, women's academic places, women's jobs, women's rights the right for women to call themselves woman.

Okay. If you insist on reducing feminism to this one issue then go for it. I suppose the rest of us will have to take feminism to the other boards, like a PP said, that was how it used to be. Maybe it makes sense that way anyway. It shouldn't be separate from everyday life stuff.

Frogs I think it would depend how the threads were going. Pity mentioned abortion earlier:

Abortion: female/woman's issue.
Except they are changing the language and removing the word woman. Oh and did you know men get pregnant too.

So, supposing there were two boards. I arrive on MN after work and see a thread on the abortion news story in 'Feminism Chat'. If I look and it's dominated by posts on the theme Pity has suggested, I'd probably think 'I'll start a new thread so we can discuss this from a different angle'. If it wasn't, I'd join the existing thread.

I would hope it would work the other way round - so GC posters might join a LibFem thread, but if they wanted to extend the discussion to Pity's themes, they might start another thread.

So, yes, I agree that's divisive. But on the other hand, if there was no other topic in Feminism, posters who looked in on the GC abortion thread but didn't want to go there would have to post in Chat or AIBU where the topic might go in very different direction, e.g. sharing of personal experiences, making a more analytical discussion insensitive or inappropriate. So in the end, those posters might have no opportunity to discuss the story at all.

Why on earth do people keep setting up the straw argument that having a topic = a ban?

The Bexit told c didn't exactly stop threads and debate, did it?

You are saying on the new topic I would not be allowed to do that.

No, that's not what I'm saying. But if it wasn't relevant, you might get people politely suggesting there was a better topic for your post.

Okay. If you insist on reducing feminism to this one issue then go for it.

Oh sorry can I not care about more than one issue at a time

I care about all feminist issues however I can also see that some of those issues are negatively affected by the trans movement so I say so if it's relevant.
Christ 5 years ago when I was discussing women's pregnancy care I would have never mentioned the word man or people who are pregnant.
Sadly now it seems I cannot discuss women's pregnancy care without including men or saying pregnant people as I am informed I am being exclusionary if I do.

I dont want trans to be included in every feminist issue but they have barged their way in to our spaces and forced us to talk about it.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Butif it wasn't relevant, you might get people politely suggesting there was a better topic for your post.

But it's in the feminist section. What if I didn't want to leave? Would I then be bullied off the thread?

Also the word ban is being used as in banning GC discussion not banning posters Ombudsman.
If a topic is created where GC posts are not welcome then that translates as a ban on GC posts. Or that's how I see it anyway.

@Pottytrainingwoes the full list as well as memes can be found on the trollbusters wordpress blog.

But it's in the feminist section. What if I didn't want to leave? Would I then be bullied off the thread?

I imagine you'd receive the same sort of responses as non GC posters usually receive if they express non GC views in 'Feminism Chat'.

There are five sections listed under Feminism. If you do not want to be exposed to the tenets of Feminism that you disapprove of there is more than enough room in one of the other sections for you to discuss your brand of feminism.

I imagine you'd receive the same sort of responses as non GC posters usually receive if they express non GC views in 'Feminism Chat'.

Good I would be happy with that. I can hold my own so happy to debate with different opinions. Just not happy to be told a GC view is not allowed here despite it being relevant to the topic being discussed.

Sadly now it seems I cannot discuss women's pregnancy care without including men or saying pregnant people as I am informed I am being exclusionary if I do

I think comments like this are why separate boards are needed. It’s like we are from parallel universes. IRL I have never heard something so ridiculous, let alone an otherwise seemingly intelligent woman say it as if she actually believed it is commonplace train of thought.

I think the GC crowd are very involved on twitter and embedded in these discussions and therefore think it is the most important thing as they are surrounded by it, those who don’t mingle in those spaces, tend to think it’s a bit overboard.

Anyhow, if MN don’t put in a new section, I guess we’ll have to continue spreading across chat, relationships etc. A shame though.

I think the GC crowd are very involved on twitter and embedded in these discussions and therefore think it is the most important thing as they are surrounded by it, those who don’t mingle in those spaces, tend to think it’s a bit overboard.

YY to this.

I think comments like this are why separate boards are needed. It’s like we are from parallel universes. IRL I have never heard something so ridiculous, let alone an otherwise seemingly intelligent woman say it as if she actually believed it is commonplace train of thought

The Royal College of Midwives released material that removes “woman” from literature. I’m marking a zillion essays just now but I can try and find the link at some point.

It is mainstream 😭

IRL I have never heard something so ridiculous, let alone an otherwise seemingly intelligent woman say it as if she actually believed it is commonplace train of thought.

Wow underhanded insult right there cheers

The telegraph ran an article in 2017 referencing the BMA guidelines that state expectant mothers should not be used but pregnant people so as not to offend others such as transmen.

The Times also ran an article in 2017 reporting that the UN has been urged to use the term pregnant people to avoid excluding trans people.

But yeah I am not intelligent enough to read a vast amount of information I just get all this stuff off Twitter.

BMA British Medical Association

The BBC news reports on period poverty and free towels for girls avoided the use of the word 'girls' and "female", replacing them with the akward "young people" and "students".
Listen back to any radio news report on it last week.

Yeah where I am, there has been a huge push to remove the “woman” and “mother” from midwifery and repro rights

This is commonplace and mainstream

glad others still live in a cozy pre-pomo world

As PP said, there are five boards in “feminism”... why don’t libfemmers claim one of the four, and start having the discussions you want?

Unless this is less about wanting those discussions, and more about whining about FWR

Unless this is less about wanting those discussions, and more about whining about FWR

The BMA said the document was purely guidance for its staff on effective communication within the workplace, not advice to its 156,000 doctor members on how to deal with patients.

fullfact.org/law/pregnant-people/

One article in 2017 out of the hundreds of thousands of bits of literature over time. Given the NHS website itself still clearly refers to pregnant women I’d say it’s a bit hyperbolic to claim you are being told it’s exclusionary to say pregnant women

But this is precisely the type of discussion I try to avoid.

Notice something about this?
www.always.co.uk/en-gb/puberty-education-programme-always-tampax

There's not a mention of this being for girls, it's for everyone, obviously.