To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

500+ posts and I think many feel a separate board for those who want to avoid the Trans Topic could work. So, is anyone going to propose this to HQ? Or just talk about it? It seems the idea has legs.

Has anyone tried starting/posting on other threads on topics important to them since this thread started? And how have they got on?

There are at least four or five other feminist boards, in case anyone wants to start threads on those, by the way.

You could just add another one. Non-gender critical feminism, or something.

I mean, it would be totally worth it to stop people from policing the subject matter on FWR.

Someone appeared to suggest that you'd have to agree TWAW to post on it

I don't think you'd need to agree TWAW to post on it. What you'd need to do would be to accept that other posters on that board agreed TWAW and that that particular board wasn't the place to argue that point.

I mean, it would be totally worth it to stop people from policing the subject matter on FWR.

Well exactly.

It's hard to see how some of the posters here would cope with the loss of that little pleasure, though, isn't it?

And I suspect that the OP might now be mindful that perhaps people should be careful what they wish for....

At least on Feminism Chat you don't get regulars using language like that used on this thread by the people who are lobbying to evict "wrongthinkers" and limit what can be discussed.

Language like: "Normal women don't", "normal feminists don't". Pure propaganda, "othering" and stigmatising the women who currently post in Feminism Chat.

You know that you would not get away unchallenged on Feminism Chat using bullying tactics like that, implicitly slurring people as "abnormal" if they disagree with you. Is that why you find it "unwelcoming"?

I don't think Mumsnet is about to adopt a policy that supports silencing discussion using bullying and public humiliation.

Please do go ahead though and list the characteristics and beliefs that a woman must display in order to be "normal" according to your rules.

While you are at it, why not ask Mumsnet to authorise you to assign badges to the profiles of women who you decide are "not normal"? That would be a nice tie-in with Holocaust Remembrance Week for you.

Someone appeared to suggest that you'd have to agree TWAW to post on it

I don't think you'd need to agree TWAW to post on it. What you'd need to do would be to accept that other posters on that board agreed TWAW and that that particular board wasn't the place to argue that point.

Oh, but the board wouldn't be anything about who is or isn't a woman, would it?

It would just be nice gender stuff. Biological sex would be completely irrelevant - and therefore, it needn't be troubled at all by pesky feminists.

As Datun's said already: Win-win. Perfect!

64% don't think FWR posters should be sent off to a separate section called "gender whatever" - so I don't think MNHQ should go for that.

But I don't think anyone would have a serous problem with a separate "Liberal Feminism" section. Although I personally think there are too many separate boards on MN already.

Yes, @Cohle, it's quite a distraction, and exhausting and depressing when people try to derail discussion with abuse. Posters on FWR experience that quite a lot, as it's frequently targeted by trolls (as Datun has pointed out, and as I'm sure anyone who reads FWR boards already knows). All of us experience it. Some posters deal with it better than others.
Respectfully, it seems a little odd that you blame feminists for that. Look at FWR boards and it's clear that most of the abuse isn't from feminists.

This somehow reminds me of the fact that violence against and murder of trans people (and there is altogether too much of that, particularly against trans women-of-colour) is almost invariably perpetrated by males, but it is females who are being attacked for literal violence against trans or literally killing trans people-- as if trying to discuss something is literal violence or literal killing.

To clarify - what Zebra said

Please do go ahead though and list the characteristics and beliefs that a woman must display in order to be "normal" according to your rules.

Exactly.

And thank you, @MoleSmokes.

Isn't this just the sort of question posters could pose on the shiny new Gender board, where none of the other posters will be at all peturbed by it - because it's only mean old feminists who get riled by weird shit reasonable assertions that there are 'normal' women, and all others are wrong 'uns, isn't it?

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Yep.

Why not try and see what happens? I'm curious to see if anyone will try to derail your thread that has nothing to do with genderism, or act unwelcoming... I'm guessing not, but let's see...

As I've said downthread, the last time (that I'm aware of) another poster tried to start a deliberately non-GC thread in similar circumstances she was treated horribly and I received a PM warning me off participating because the thread was "sanctimonious" and the OP "a long standing irritant" apparently.

It was actually a really useful thread and the OP posted very insightfully about FGM, so perhaps I should, but to be honest I've got quite a lot going on in real life at the moment and I don't have the emotional energy to become a punching bag like she did.

I don't think there are many on here using the 'normal' terminology (I certainly haven't).

MNHQ seem to have a general policy of reducing the number of boards so I'm not sure whether they'd go for a LibFem board in the current climate. It could be worth asking them, though.

Care to link to that thread, @Cohle?

Not particularly. It will doubtless turn into a character assassination of the OP who as far as I know isn't here to defend herself.

As I've said downthread, the last time (that I'm aware of) another poster tried to start a deliberately non-GC thread in similar circumstances she was treated horribly and I received a PM warning me off participating because the thread was "sanctimonious" and the OP "a long standing irritant" apparently.

That wasn't the last time someone started a non-GC thread in FWR. There have been several started this afternoon.

Julykits wondering how many are trolls is exactly the thing people are on about.
It can never be that sometimes people just don't agree, can it? It has to be the constant sowing of doubt, discrediting anyone with a different opinion by insinuating they're trolls!

The other response is the you are trying to shut women down the you object to women having opinions line which Julykit has also been using.

This response in most situations is not true. It is ironic in that posters using it are trying to do exactly what they are accusing others of doing.

I remember the very thread, started by EW in exactly the same circumstances as on here, as in "go start your own, no'ones stopping you, see what happens"
Without remembering what it was called though won't be easy to link.
Could look through her posting history I suppose and find out that way, it'll be there somewhere

Oh well cohle, perhaps when you've got less on, you could ask HQ for a dedicated board, or try starting your own thread about things you want to talk about.

In terms of the other thread. I agree the FGM points were very well made.

I think it was that the poster had also done some cutting and pasting off Google over other charities, some of which were really not very friendly towards women?

She was another poster who disagreed with what we were saying, why couldn't we talk about other things, so was encouraged to start her own thread. But then it looked like she had posted some things precipitously without actually reading them or being aware of what they said.

It was quite some time ago, so I can't remember the exact order of events.

I'm not particularly in favour of a separate board though. There's already too much division in modern feminism. I might not agree with GC feminists on some issues, but I still think there's more that unites us than divides us.

All I, and I think many others want, is a greater willingness to engage with slightly divergent viewpoints in good faith. I'm sure I'll be slagged off for "telling women to play nice" though .

Oh yes I remember that now datun

It would be very interesting to see that again...i do remember bits of it, but certainly not enough to comment on it in any useful way now