To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

I find your use of the word 'frightened' really, really weird and hyperbolic. It's an internet talk board. You can step away at any moment. The nasty feminists are not going to come to your house, or jump out at you when you're doing your makeup, or stalk you, or doxx you and try to lose you your job. They're just disgreeing with you, in words, on a screen.

Yes, in retrospect 'frightened' was the wrong choice of word, and I apologise.

Nevertheless, it is upsetting to some degree to be accused of being a non-genuine poster, even the thread can be stepped away from. And of course if you step away from a thread, you often get snide comments that 'x obviously isn't coming back' and the like.

Where there is a disagreement about the starting point for feminism, there is always the potential for threads to go astray because there are fundamental points on which people disagree. With a majority of FWR posters being GC, other posters seem to start behind a hurdle of having to justify their position, and their credentials as a poster, before they can move on. It would be good to have a board where posters who agree on a starting point can talk without the discussion being cluttered up by having to justify that starting point.

And while no one doxes, some FWR posters will follow you to other threads (even if not trans related) and hark back to your position on gender, to discredit your views.

"But in order to discuss how any of those affect women, we have to have a definition of what a woman is"
Isn't that just what everyone's saying though? Doesn't matter what the subject, it always turns into a trans thread somehow

Or "don't talk about what a woman is as a starting point for understanding women's rights, because that's just going on about the boring trans issue again"

Or "don't talk about women's rights" full stop.

That was clever Willis. Well, I guess that's over. I'll get me coat.

I can't see any of those posters were bullying you in any way whatsoever.
Yep I can see there are deletions and apparently heated comments about your username at which you seem pissed off.

Um, so aren't you kind of agreeing there that there is bullying type of comments and not just "robust debate and discussion?"
Unless you're OK with the fact Cohle said someone had said her username sounded like too much like peekhole (I remember that, it insinuates pervert when in context with thread, you'd really be OK with all that if it was constantly aimed at you?

Because as I've said July it's quite difficult to engage in meaningful, constructive debate when you're busy defending yourself from distressing allegations of being a male pervert.

Nor did I realise there were certain FWR posters who I was expected to drop everything and kowtow to .

And yes Datun I understand that, but (a) if you suspect someone is a troll, surely the correct course of action is to report that, not troll hunt and (b) I'm apparently not an unknown poster based on how many people on this thread are keen to point out that I post on FWR.

The fact that feminists now have to filter every discussion on every issue through the question of 'what is meant by the word 'woman' / - 'female' / 'girl' ??' is not a result of feminists turning discussions on feminism into discussions on trans issues. It's the result of trans ideology having so successfully made the terms that define human females meaningless, and therefore hamstrung feminist discourse and feminist progress.

This. Exactly this.

Thank you, @RaveOnThisCrazyFeeling.

So when you are an unknown poster with a username that sounds out as peekhole
Wasn't an unknown poster though. I'd seen the name quite a few times and still do - seems to be a regular poster.
Secondly, how on earth do you (general you) jump to peekhole?
I remember seeing it and getting the giggles as I was thinking WTF!

And yes Datun I understand that, but (a) if you suspect someone is a troll, surely the correct course of action is to report that, not troll hunt and (b) I'm apparently not an unknown poster based on how many people on this thread are keen to point out that I post on FWR.

Yes, you're not supposed to troll hunt.

And you were not a known poster when you first came on with the peekhole name.

Actually, I have little idea as to what your argument actually is. Most of the time it's just policing what other people are saying.

Cross posted with Cohle

Because as I've said July it's quite difficult to engage in meaningful, constructive debate when you're busy defending yourself from distressing allegations of being a male pervert.

Yes, @Cohle, it's quite a distraction, and exhausting and depressing when people try to derail discussion with abuse. Posters on FWR experience that quite a lot, as it's frequently targeted by trolls (as Datun has pointed out, and as I'm sure anyone who reads FWR boards already knows). All of us experience it. Some posters deal with it better than others.
Respectfully, it seems a little odd that you blame feminists for that. Look at FWR boards and it's clear that most of the abuse isn't from feminists.

Nor did I realise there were certain FWR posters who I was expected to drop everything and kowtow to hmm.

There aren't. It's just that if it's discussion you're after, it's there. You don't have to engage in a bun fight if you don't want to.
(Oh, and by the way, how is engaging in discussion 'kowtowing'? )

As for people's awareness that you post on FWR, a quick search shows that. You don't need to be well known for people to figure that out.

Actually, I have little idea as to what your argument actually is.

Posters on this thread seem to think it's as easy as "well start a thread on a non-GC topic then and have at it". I think all I and several other posters are trying to point out are the many, many ways in which it's not as easy as that.

Of course I understand that FWR is targeted by trolls, but that's not a free pass to break (the normal) talk guidelines.

Of course I understand that FWR is targeted by trolls, but that's not a free pass to break (the normal) talk guidelines.

Who's talking about a free pass? I said it's understandable that they would view a new poster whose name sounds out peephole, with suspicion.

I'm giving you context.

*peekhole

Of course it's for MNHQ to enforce talk guidelines

All I've tried to do are provide examples of the sort of behaviour that make it difficult for non-GC posters to engage in good faith discussion on FWR.

I continue to post anyway, but I worry about how many potential feminists are being discouraged especially on MN but also in feminism in general because of the increasing GC hegemony.

I continue to post anyway,

Maybe think about actually formulating an argument, that makes sense, is logical, or whatever. Rather than bang on about the rules and policing everything everyone says.

Thanks, @Cohle.

I do see your point.

I also worry about how potential feminists are being discouraged.
I sometimes work in universities, and what worries me particularly at the moment is the way in which feminist discussion is being shut down, how feminist academics are being threatened and hounded.

I do appreciate that some people are threatened by robust discussion. I also know how distressing it can be when you're on the receiving end of harassment from trolls. I see that on here, I see it on Twitter. Not one of those trolls has been a GC feminist, though.

As for 'the increasing GC hegemony', well, there are plenty of people calling themselves 'feminists' who oppose it. Check out Ash Sarkar & Jameela Jamil for starters. Or how about Sally Hines, who also calls herself a feminist, and is doing lovely business running 'gender studies' programmes which are probably just right for young people who don't want to hear a peep from GC feminists.

Please be assured, Cohle, there's plenty of support for those who'd like to identify as feminists but also want to take the view that a woman is anyone who describes themselves as such.

Bad thread to post on and then realise you haven’t changed your username back oh god if only I was a poo troll, sounds like much more fun than actual potty training
There’s lots of threads that illustrate the points made, for example The thread discussed earlier where a poster who didn’t agree with GC women on other threads, started her own thread on FGM I think and most were plain nasty to her.

I just went back trying to find some of the threads mentioned but can’t remember what they were called although I did come across some posts while searching which very clearly summed up my points, I won’t post screenshots because I don’t think it’s fair to the posters.
I think denial isn’t helping. FWR does have it’s issues, any forum which accuses anyone who has a funny username or opposing view of being a man/pervert/troll is very clearly not a stable one.
Although, I don’t think it’s fair to expect the regulars to move elsewhere but a new section would be good.
I think any of the regulars that are against a feminist section away from the trans talk are hypocritical at best.

Yes, I understand the argument against having a separate gender-critical section. I'm not sure why GC feminists would object to a separate liberal feminism topic. They could continue with GC-orientated discussion on the existing boards as they always have.

How would another board work? Would certain opinions be banned on it? Someone appeared to suggest that you'd have to agree TWAW to post on it, but surely no one would seriously suggest that.

any forum which accuses anyone who has a funny username or opposing view of being a man/pervert/troll is very clearly not a stable one.

I'm sure you're already aware that FWR boards are regularly bombarded by trolls. Doesn't really help with 'stability', does it? And I don't see how feminists are to blame for that (other than by existing, speaking, etc.).

I don’t think it’s fair to expect the regulars to move elsewhere but a new section would be good.

Has anyone even suggested that 'regulars' should 'move elsewhere'? Why on earth would anyone do that?

As you can see, many of us have suggested the introduction of a new section. I've proposed one called Commercial Gender. I think that's a more useful name than e.g. Commercial Feminism for reasons I outlined in my post about it. I doubt you'd meet too many pesky GC feminists there, so all should be well. And you could have all the 'trans talk' you like there! Happy days, eh?

FWR increased traffic to this site, through their board, twelvefold in one year. Right when the GRA public consultation kicked off, which is no coincidence, in my opinion.

Traffic is what drives the advertising, which is what drives the revenue.

I've no idea whether or not setting up new boards is conditional upon revenue, or not.

But absolutely, if you want a board to talk about gender or whatever and let us stop being policed when we talk about sex.

Win-win.

Oh, and as for this one: I won’t post screenshots because I don’t think it’s fair to the posters

I think most of us will agree that it's far worse to make unfounded accusations.

So please, @Pottytrainingwoes, go ahead and show evidence of those posts you're complaining about. It's best that everyone sees them.

I think all I and several other posters are trying to point out are the many, many ways in which it's not as easy as that.

Why not try and see what happens? I'm curious to see if anyone will try to derail your thread that has nothing to do with genderism, or act unwelcoming... I'm guessing not, but let's see...

How would another board work? Would certain opinions be banned on it?

Not banned - it would have to rely on a certain amount of good faith/common sense. In the same way, for example, you wouldn't post 'I don't think cats should be kept as pets' on The Litter Tray or 'Tennis is a load of crap' in the Wimbledon topic. Or if you did, you'd be easily identifiable as a GF rather than someone seeking a genuine discussion.

Someone appeared to suggest that you'd have to agree TWAW to post on it, but surely no one would seriously suggest that.

I think that would be a strange rule! I just mean a section where you can discuss feminism without every other poster jumping on with comments about trans people would be a welcome change! Where posters who have no interest in the trans debate can engage and those that may have feminism hidden currently can have a section to talk.
Obviously GC views spread onto other sections all the time but hopefully it would be a space where the overriding focus would be women, as opposed to trans people.