To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

Now we're demanding safe spaces...there are no safe spaces online unless you make a private group with strong moderation.

And why would you even want to, really, unless you're talking about sensitive, personal issues like abuse, mental health etc. Are your political ideas really so wishy washy that they can't stand up to scrutiny?

If you can't handle criticism, then should you really be involved in the debate, honestly?

I don’t think the majority of GC feminists do welcome debate actually, any opposing views do tend to be shut down with cries of an infiltration or patronising, sneering with a bit of a gang vibe.

It would be nice to have a section where feminists could discuss issues important to them without having to justify their ‘care of women’ by entering into a debate on transwomen.

That might work, NotTerf but the meaning of the prefix wouldn't be obvious to newbies. A 'Liberal Feminism' board would be clearer.

If any Liberal feminists want to debate trans issues, then they won't have any difficulty doing so on 'Feminism Chat'. A liberal board would be for issues to be discussed without being derailed by trans debates, or as said before, allegations that posters are MRAs or TRAs because they don't hold GC views.

I believe it's still legal to shoot a Welshman with a bow and arrow in a market town on a Sunday (or something like that) but it hasn't ever happened. I know this is different

It's different because the things people are concerned about have happened and are happening right now. It's not theoretical at all

Yabvu it's an issue that touches every facet of feminism. If there's no longer a meaningful concept of womanhood there's no way, without performing extreme mental gymnastics and eating several bowlfuls of word-salad, just to be able to begin a simple conversation on the topic.

If you were proposing a separate section for genderists to talk bollocks about male and female essences, you'd have my full support.

I understood you perfectly the first time, @DesireesChild. (I hope I don't sound too patronising by telling you that.)

"I don’t think the majority of GC feminists do welcome debate actually, any opposing views do tend to be shut down with cries of an infiltration or patronising, sneering with a bit of a gang vibe."

Or they just keep arguing the point.

"I think tw are women."
"I think you're wrong and this is why."
"Because they say they are and..."
"There is no evidence for that and..."
"STOP SHOUTING ME DOWN."

Someone vigourously defending their point is not shutting down debate.

What do you think people should do? Say 'oh yes, you're right, I agree with you' even though they don't?

You're just tone policing when you say stuff like 'patronising' and 'sneering'.

You don't need to enter any debate you're not interested in. I couldn't give a shit about Brexit so I don't discuss it. Same here. If someone talks about something you're not interested in, just ignore and move on.

It would be nice to have a section where feminists could discuss issues important to them without having to justify their ‘care of women’ by entering into a debate on transwomen.

FWR already provides this. If you want to start a thread on abortion rights say you can, no one is stopping you.

All the time you discuss women no one will mention males. Of course if you start bringing trans dogma into it but trying to police the language women use lest it upset the trans believers then that will be commented on, but that would be you bringing trans dogma in, not those rolling their eyes at you.

isn't there already a forum where you would not feel uncomfortable for 'not centring women' or for 'putting men's rights first'

Dadsnet right?

It is fascinating that many assume that those who aren’t as obsessed with the trans debate as themselves, must be silly little genderists that want to talk about how great sex work is.
As opposed to normal feminists that feel that transgenderism isn’t the be all and end all and are pretty bored of the all-consuming trans discussions that go round and round.
Pretty much every thread on FWR turns into a trans discussion, whether it’s started about trans people or not.

@Pottytrainingwoes, as others have said, you don't have to part of any 'trans debate' to post on the FWR boards. If 'trans debate' bores you, you don't even have to reads threads about it. Subject to MN mods decisions, you can post about absolutely anything you want to on the FWR boards. Why not do so, if there's stuff you'd like to discuss?

What I really think Personfrom2045 is that most people don't know much about the difference between different strands of feminism and that separating the MN Feminist chat board into different factions - so overtly implying that anyone who doesn't know enough about academic feminism to identify which 'camp' they belong in should not be posting - would be massively, massively, off-putting and detrimental to people's ability and interest in taking part in any discussion on any topic they perceive as having a possible feminist angle. It would be an act of vandalism and a very poor business decision.

I'm also reminding people of the fact that Mumsnet is a business and generally operates like one. It grows where there's demand and doesn't waste time creating new products no-one wants. No matter what anyone happens to think is 'right'. You don't need 'right' you need a business case.

I find your use of the word 'frightened' really, really weird and hyperbolic. It's an internet talk board. You can step away at any moment. The nasty feminists are not going to come to your house, or jump out at you when you're doing your makeup, or stalk you, or doxx you and try to lose you your job. They're just disgreeing with you, in words, on a screen.

I know it's not fun being disagreed with, especially when you thought you were saying something fairly uncontentious, or just seeking opinions or chatting. It can feel surprisingly unpleasant and unsettling to feel got at or belittled, even though they are only words on a screen. I was once subjected to sustained mockery for admitting to letting my DC wait a whole traffic light cycle so she could be the one to press the button at the crossing (tantrum avoidance, good for my MH and her enjoyment of the pre-school we were approaching). No, actually the most ridiculous and indulgent thing some posters had ever read. Some of the 2012 Olympic threads (including a gentle, informative little one I started) were a minefield of snarkiness and aggressive disdain. I've been shouted at and called names for offering a perfectly innoccuous observation about reserved seats on trains. This is why I would never, ever start a thread in AIBU.

I just don't understand why the FWR threads are held to higher standards than the rest of Mumsnet.

OP to answer to your question, yes self-ID is a disaster in Canada, women are raped (penis rape) by trans prisoners so often they have morning after pill available at Dispensary.

Self-Id is a disaster for poor women.

And Whoever implied that wanting male-free spaces is akin to white / Black segregation... STOP with the racism.

OP please do ask for a libfem board tho. Is that not a viable solution? I don’t think FWR posters will bother you.

Is this a widespread problem in countries that already have self-ID? (not a trick question, genuinely interested).

Yes. In Ireland men who have legally become women are now being put in women's prisons, even though at the time they passed the legislation they said this would be an exception and male-born people would always go to men's prisons.

You could also have a look at some of the stories on here. These are not all from countries with self-ID in the sense that they can change their official birth records, but they have all come about because men are taking advantage of laws which say that they can identify as women and be treated as women.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Personally, I couldn't define lib fem or rad fem (though gaining an inkling by inference), or know how many others 'fems' there are and have never taken an academic course on the subject. I've happily waded into FWR threads, said some sensible things and some silly or tedious ones - and those latter have just been ignored and talked past. Much like my experience on The Archers threads, where, like FWR, the general standard of erudition, discussion and good manners is a degree of magnitude higher than that on AIBU. There have been slips and scrimmages though and I did feel a little bit got at once - and the firmness of the self-policing and intolerance against spoilers has to be seen to be believed. As I say, much like FWR.

As opposed to normal feminists that feel that transgenderism isn’t the be all and end all and are pretty bored of the all-consuming trans discussions that go round and round.

What issues are you concerned about as a 'normal feminist'?

@lottiegarbanzo, those are such good posts.

OldCrone I didn’t mean ‘normal feminist’ in an offensive way, just that we are not lesser feminists for not wanting to discuss trans people all the time.
I’m concerned about lots! Mainly domestic violence and abuse, lack of support for women returning to the work place, universal credit and austerity and the effect that has on women including legal aid, women’s healthcare and the shit we are forced to put up with in childbirth and period pain that just aren’t taken seriously by medical professionals.

There’s lots of things that I want to discuss but I just can’t be bothered to have to navigate around why it all comes back to ‘being trans’ on FWR so I don’t post them.

@OldCrone to answer your question - absolutely you can discuss ALL the issues I mentioned without questioning what a woman is or mentioning anything to do with trans. And you can do so actually better because you will be focused on the real issues that are driving injustice, rather than one little corner of a debate.

Thinking forced marriage or FGM is anything to do with trans is like looking at the world by peering through a key hole in one far corner.

Do you think a girl of 11 being forced into marriage or being mutilated even knows or cares that trans people exist? Or the people doing this to her do? Do you really think that women in this country earn less than men for the same job because of trans people or policies? Do you think progress is going to be made on that by talking about trans stuff? Do you think a woman who has been raped is going to be shamed and blamed less in court because of anything to do with the trans debate? Of course not.

And no, most of the real world has no difficulty understanding what a woman is and addressing any of these issues without getting lost in the trans question. It is only in pockets (one of them here) that people seem to view this as THE existential threat of our time.....

There’s lots of things that I want to discuss but I just can’t be bothered to have to navigate around why it all comes back to ‘being trans’ on FWR so I don’t post them.

Have you started any threads about any of the things you'd like to discuss, @Pottytrainingwoes?

I understood you perfectly the first time

JulyKit replies quite clearly show you didn't.

Not for a few months but previously, yes. I was told my worries about safe access to abortion were misplaced, I should be more worried about trans people instead because ‘if men can be women abortion will be illegal’
It’s a regular round and round with it all coming back to the trans agenda over there.
You may disagree but I think the absence of such threads speak for themselves.

64% disagree.

I reason why people IRL don’t know about this issue is because of no debate and the attempt to ban all discussions.

@Pottytrainingwoes, those threads sound extraordinary!
Are you able to link to them, please?