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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

999 replies

Jargoyle · 25/01/2020 01:31

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 27/01/2020 14:05

You do realise that if a discussion isn't for you you have the choice to toddle off and start one of your own, don't you? Lottie makes a good point about the safe space thing ... I think some posters interpret robust, well researched and some times angry posting as "not safe". It's far from that.

I'm wondering and I'm asking this question seriously - posters who for a variety of reasons don't like posting where GC posters hang out ... have you tried suggesting an alternative board to MNHQ? Coz we can talk about this until the cows come home and all will be as it is now Grin

Jargoyl What do you think to the idea of sex segregated spaces being done away with all together? Previous studies of real vs theoretical risk of men seem to have concluded its considerable. But not all men are predators. So what's the issue with us all just not getting our kit off in one room, with the kids? After all it's just genitals and not all men are predators.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 27/01/2020 14:06

Apologies Jargoyle for name mis-spelling there.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 27/01/2020 14:20

Julykits wondering how many are trolls is exactly the thing people are on about.
It can never be that sometimes people just don't agree, can it? It has to be the constant sowing of doubt, discrediting anyone with a different opinion by insinuating they're trolls!

2BthatUnnoticed · 27/01/2020 14:21

Screenshot of that nonsensical abortion comment (“If men can be women abortion will be illegal”), or it didn’t happen. Ridiculous hyperbole.

I think OP is BU but accidentally voted the opposite (question was a bit confusing).

Looking forward to lurking on the new Liberal Feminism board soon Flowers

ItsLateHumpty · 27/01/2020 14:25

Willis what's your answer to the OP? I think I've missed it in this fast moving thread.

JulyKit · 27/01/2020 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Retrofitted · 27/01/2020 14:28

BraveGoldie articulates the reality of posting on FWR with any non GC views really well.

For those not familiar with FWR, there is, for example, an ongoing recurring thread called Banbury where regulars publicly discuss posters on other threads and point them out as disrupters, sea lions, MRAs etc, and encourage one another to ignore those posters.

They also do it on threads with depressing predictability and regularity. If the non GC poster doesn’t quietly go away then it escalates.

Grey rock is a current favourite. It’s a signifier to remind those who are being abused by narcissistic attention seekers to help them not engage. Post in FWR with a dissenting view and you’ll get a grey rock picture or comment used against you soon enough. Being labelled as an abuser is really horrible, and it goes way past what most people would consider “robust response” in discussion.

Stick around long enough politely making your arguments, and you’ll not only have your arguments, points, facts and evidence completely and totally ignored or disregarded, but you’ll get called a whole lot of names, insulted, and finally, accused of being an abusive anti-woman misogynist who does not care about the safety of women and children.

It’s been happening, and escalating, for years now.

Posters will literally and repeatedly tell you that you should not be there, because FWR is for GC women only.

LastTrainEast · 27/01/2020 14:28

"a safe space for women men who disagree with all or part of the gender critical narrative would be excellent"

JulyKit · 27/01/2020 14:30

This reply has been deleted

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Cohle · 27/01/2020 14:32

That's a very good post Retro, I agree with your experiences wholeheartedly.

As a regular MN user with a decent posting history under this name, being accused of being a troll, a pervert, a man and/or a "community disruptor" is wearisome and effectively shuts you out of participating meaningfully in discussion.

Retrofitted · 27/01/2020 14:33

This week, there are three lengthy threads of FWR regulars completely disregarding and ignoring and choosing to disbelieve and discredit MNHQ, including Justine herself, about things that have happened, complete with facts, evidence, and backup of position.

If hundreds of FWR regulars so flagrantly and totally disregard facts from the boss of MNHQ, who makes and runs the forum, and accuse them of coercion and being manipulated, what possibly point or purpose is there in trying to present a dissenting viewpoint on anything against the prevailing view?

Apollo440 · 27/01/2020 14:34

Retrofitted

Not what I've found at all. Provided you can argue your case you'll find discourse. If however you come to parrot a mantra like TWAW you'll be asked to explain yourself and given short shrift when you can't.

ItsLateHumpty · 27/01/2020 14:34

Posters will literally and repeatedly tell you that you should not be there, because FWR is for GC women only.

So, that's you agreeing with the OP.

I'm really looking forward to reading what types of threads get posted on the new Gender forum, and what can be learnt.

OP have you already started convos with MN?

Retrofitted · 27/01/2020 14:37

Apollo, it happens, daily, and MNHQ know that. It happens to regular mners trying to join in with discussion, and it’s got nothing to do with “parroting mantras”.

JulyKit · 27/01/2020 14:38

@Retrofitted, it's not unusual for MNers to dispute MNHQ's decisions, and it's not only FWR posters who do that.
Over the years, there have been several times when prolific and popular but outspoken posters have been suspended or banned, and posters have disputed and objected to it. MNHQ have listened to what poters have to say, and they've responded, sometimes by reinstating the posters they've previously sanctioned.
That's how MN works. It's probably quite unusual that Justine and her team work like that. I think they're quite brilliant for having the courage and presence of mind to work like that, and I think several tens of thousands of other MNers feel as I do.
But my point is this: it's not just FWR posters who dispute some MNHQ decisions. MN and MNers have worked like that for years.

2BthatUnnoticed · 27/01/2020 14:39

Someone posting a picture does not amount to “being labeled an abuser.” Confused Get a grip.

What is with all the ridiculous hyperbole!?

JulyKit · 27/01/2020 14:40

As a regular MN user with a decent posting history under this name, being accused of being a troll, a pervert, a man and/or a "community disruptor" is wearisome and effectively shuts you out of participating meaningfully in discussion.

And yet here you are, Cohle, confidently engaging, and with other posters interacting with you politely and meaningfully....

ItsLateHumpty · 27/01/2020 14:42

It happens to regular mners trying to join in with discussion, and it’s got nothing to do with “parroting mantras”.

I'd say that's more to do with the paucity of the argument being put forward.

Cohle · 27/01/2020 14:46

And yet here you are, Cohle, confidently engaging, and with other posters interacting with you politely and meaningfully....

I'm not sure I understand your point. We're not in FWR right now...

ErrolTheDragon · 27/01/2020 14:47

Over the years, there have been several times when prolific and popular but outspoken posters have been suspended or banned, and posters have disputed and objected to it.

I remember quite a long time ago a very forthright regular on the DogHouse thread being banned (after some warnings) because she was passionate and knowledgeable about animal welfare and simply couldn't pull her punches when it came to people buying from probable puppy farmers etc. There were at least two full threads arguing for her reinstatement - to no avail iirc.

Cohle · 27/01/2020 14:51

Isn't that exactly the situation Justine was posting about a few days ago re Lang, Errol?

Where MNHQ "felt compelled to act to diffuse what had become an aggressive orthodoxy".

2BthatUnnoticed · 27/01/2020 14:54

If the new Liberal Feminism board has “TWAW” as a tenet, that will surely address the issue here (assuming the aim is to create a new space for women, not simply close an existing one).

For a feminism board to work, it needs to have (as a starting point) an agreed definition of what a “woman” is. Otherwise there will be endless circular discussion of this key issue.

On a LF board, women who believe TWAW (or are indifferent) can discuss issues important to them without this debate taking place.

ItsLateHumpty · 27/01/2020 14:54

And yet here you are, Cohle, confidently engaging, and with other posters interacting with you politely and meaningfully....

I'm not sure I understand your point. We're not in FWR right now...

And yet you were on at least two of the 'Lang' threads in the last week. In FWR.

Cohle · 27/01/2020 14:59

Again I'm not sure I understand your point.

Are you disappointed I haven't been successfully bullied off the board? Or do you think the experiences I and many others are sharing "can't be that bad" if we can still bear to post on the same threads as FWR regulars? Because I'm sure there are large numbers of women who simply don't engage at all with FWR thanks to that kind of behaviour.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 27/01/2020 15:01

Humpty I answered in my post at 11.33 today. (can't copy and paste on my phone, sorry)