To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

So one person did that on one occasion and that put you off posting anything on there at all?

Indeed. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't know anyone here outside of the FWR board and all my communication with them is here in public. If someone DM's someone else I have nothing to do with that and they do not represent me.

Discounting us all because of one person's actions is a bit much.

@DiegoSaber So what's your point? You just want to whine but without doing anything? I don't get it.

Are you rich, OP?

Do you have stable housing and a regular source of income?

If so, I can see why FWR is pointless to you.

You’re unlikely to be in a refuge, shelter or prison - which is where Stonewell policies hurt women the most.

As always, poor women are the most vulnerable to predatory males, including the individuals who cynically exploit “TWAW” (mods - not talking about actual trans here) to gain access.

Many privileged women don’t give a shit, I know. I get it.

(The answer is services dedicated for trans and NB btw - everyone safe and catered for. But trans lobby groups reject that solution.)

Oops I said “YANBU” cause I misread the question

I thought you meant a “gender section” where women who are into Gender can talk about it...

YANBU for wanting that - Maybe ask for a “liberal feminism” board?

YABU to want FWR regulars to vacate that board, so people who currently hate it would supposedly post there

Hello @DesireesChild

I observed and recorded the rules of misogyny over the years with a great deal of assistance from other Feminists.
I am 73 so I have been involved in the political movement for the liberation of women for a long time.
I saw the corporate interests orchestrate the backlash against Feminism and watched the creation of a commercially viable brand that sold the illusion of empowerment as a pop culture substitute for actual power over our own lives.

I'm starting to think it'd be an interesting experiment to have two feminism boards, 'gender critical' and 'liberal'.

I think having a 'liberal feminism' board (or subsection of FWR) would be a really good idea. I explained earlier that, while I agree with some of the OP's points, I don't think having a separate 'gender' section is the answer. However, a safe space for women who disagree with all or part of the gender critical narrative would be excellent - this would mean that liberal feminists could post without fear of threads going astray in long discussions about whether TWAW. etc. GC critical feminists could still post in the liberal section, but would hopefully respect that a Liberal board would not be the place to start trans-related debates and of course, they would have the main FWR section to continue using for that purpose.

@Jargoyle @JulyKit and others who have broadly supported the OP - what do you think?

Apologies to @JulyKit, I tagged the wrong poster there. I meant to tag @DiegoSaber.

YABU to want FWR regulars to vacate that board, so people who currently hate it would supposedly post there

I agree...very clearly put

plus guilt trips about 'white feminism' and stuff about how feminists should get involved in issues that aren't directly feminist like relieving poverty and promoting world peace.
Still Sounds more appealing than ‘he said, she said’ twitter screenshots and pages discussing the way Caitlin Jenner sits

I think a new board to talk feminism and not trans is a great idea.

Oh, DesireesChild, the Rules of Misogyny are for everyone!

But weren’t they written by TheBewildernessisWeetabix

I dont think the board should be separated into feminism and discussion around gender identity and sex

The more i think about it the more i think its a bad idea

I question the motives of anyone who attempts to present sex and gender as a 'niche' part of feminism that should be siloed off into a 'smaller, more specialist section'. I also doubt the OPs commitment to either feminism or FWR if they think MNs discussions on Ireland's position on abortion was limited to 2 pages.

These threads always make me wonder who benefits if FWR is carved up? Who benefits if sex is presented as niche rather than integral to feminism? MRAs and TRAs benefit. Neither FWR or MN are here to centre or serve MRAs or TRAs.

No, but I’m not opposed to a new board being created for people who want to discuss what they consider to be ‘feminism’ without class analysis or reference to gender. I don’t get how that works, and it wouldn’t interest me, but I’m not opposed to people with beliefs different from mine having their own space to talk.

Still think it'd be interesting to have two boards, one where the gender movement can be discussed (called GC feminism) and one where it can't, or can only be mentioned positively (liberal). All other topics would be welcome on both boards. But I can foresee a problem with TRAs targeting the GC board for closure. They might argue that there was already a feminism board and the GC one isn't legitimate feminism (in their eyes). At the moment they're going after the FWR board because they're willing to sacrifice all feminist discussion to silence gender criticism. A GC specific board would be much more vulnerable.

cwen

I think that what would happen is it would be seen as there being a feminist board and an anti trans board (more so than now...) and pressure would increase to get rid of the ‘anti trans’ board

Especially if MNHQ got hot on moving threads which even mention trans in relation to sex...so a thread would be started on women on sport on the new board, then potentially moved if anyone brings up trans Issues in women’s sport.

Its really difficult typing the above....one wrong word and its curtains

Oh god i was so slow thinking about fucking words that notterf beat me to it

Wasn't the point of feminist chat meant to be that it was for those new to feminism and separate to the main feminism board? As I recall, that also started because the mean feminists were using too many big words and scaring people off or being too bolshy or whatever. It doesn't seem like that's particularly worked out.

People just post wherever so pretty sure a new board would just go the same way.

one of MNs problems is too many subforums with not enough moderation if they want to keep each sub focused and active. Look at reddit. On the well run and popular subreddits, anything irrelevant gets deleted quickly. On mn, it's not so. Of course they have very different feels and reddit is much larger, but mn would do better to cut the number of subs, not increase them, if they're not going to properly moderate.

Snap, Rufus. And it's obvious that genderism is having a fundamental impact on feminism and women's rights, and does need to be discussed. We don't want to do anything which could endanger that freedom.

Exactly notterf

I’m not opposed to the idea, I’m not exactly for it either

FWR has always accommodated lots of different waves of feminism. Interestingly, imo the current gender debate has been one of the most unified times on FWR because second, third and fourth wave feminists are all seeing the risks. Safeguarding, sport, prisons, refuges - have brought disparate sides together. OP doesn't seem to be suggesting boards for different waves of feminism. Instead they're pretending that all other feminist topics are sliding ... but off the top of my head in the last 2 months there have been discussions on employment law, single sex schools, abortion rights, etc. Where does OP expect those discussions to go? How can they predict the liberal or radical position on them? Or how gender critical views will impact? I agree with a PP that this would be a move to sideline, divide and then remove gender critical discussions.

Woman's rights will always be discussed on the femisim board.
Currently the biggest clash of those rights is with the current GRA changes and the fallout from this.

No, same here cwen

I thought it would be good but this morning i was just thinking that there could be a problem

OP, I see both pros and cons, but would have no issue with you asking MN to set up a “liberal feminism” board. Go for it, I say!

TWAW is not the only issue of difference- porn, prostitution, surrogacy are also things libfems take a different view on.

But is the intention to create an echo chamber? If someone disagrees with porn and goes on the libfem board do they get deleted for wrong-think? That seems like a slippery slope to banning posters for the 'wrong' pov.