To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

lord does that currently happen? On every thread there is always (well usually) people offering different views that don’t get deleted.
I think the main benefits to another board would be that people who aren’t interested in the trans debate can still get involved in feminism. I saw a thread not long ago where lots of people said they’ve hidden the feminist board, I’d assume as it’s mumsnet a lot of these people are women and so it would be good to have a space for people to get involved without feeling they have to discuss trans issues.
Even threads on FWR that are not to do with trans, end up discussing trans.

JulyKit

@FTFOTFVille, I think DesireesChild has made it quite clear: the problem all those 'sniping' women who are 'convinced they are right'. Those women with opinions. I mean, really....

Well at least you have confirmed that you don't like women expressing an opinion you don't agree with.

You have also created a nice straw man (or should that be straw woman? ) argument there.

The sniping I was referring to is the name - calling that goes on without addressing the other's point of view. The radical feminists so sure they are intellectually superior to the liberal feminists (or "the choosy choice feminists" as they are usually described by radical feminists on FWR)

The liberal feminists so sure they're so much more, well liberal and inclusive.

But is the intention to create an echo chamber? If someone disagrees with porn and goes on the libfem board do they get deleted for wrong-think? That seems like a slippery slope to banning posters for the 'wrong' pov

That seems to be what the OP would like, yes. A space where they can discuss whatever without people mentioning reality and upsetting their narrative.

It is very, very common to find such spaces online. The 'feminism' subreddit mentioned earlier in this thread is a good example. You will be banned from it if you so much as hint at reality.

I prefer honest discussion where people can be truthful myself but each to their own. Not sure why mumsnet should be expected to pander though.

Bernard summed it up yesterday at 18.48.

A thread which stirs debate and is interesting to posters will generate traffic. Trans ideology is spinning webs into so many areas of our lives and our kids lives and lots of us care deeply about how this ideology can be and has been abused. Therefore it generates a shit tonne of footfall to those threads. FWR is also known for its furry footed visitors and idiots looking for screen shots so regulars there can be spiky sometimes

If you don't see a thread for something you want to discuss start one. Those who want to discuss with you will come.

So one person did that on one occasion and that put you off posting anything on there at all?

No, I continue to post on FWR, albeit infrequently.

I'm merely seeking to illustrate why it's not quite as straightforward as "oh just start your own threads if you want then". There is clearly a pretty concerted effort to silence and dismiss posters who don't agree with the orthodoxy.

Could you describe what points you think are doctrine/orthodoxy?

And what makes you think they are doctrine as opposed to just a lot of people disagreeing with you?

Potty that's my point. Liberal feminists, no-wave feminists can and do take part in discussions on FWR. There isn't a single thread on surrogacy or porn that doesn't include a discussion. Trying to separate it out into good and bad views; radical versus liberal boards just lends credence to the view that neither side can debate with the other. What you're proposing is the online equivalent of no-platforming ie your view isn't welcome on a lib fem board. But different views are welcome everywhere on MN.
And, FWIW, there's no general consensus on who are libfems or radfems or first wavers or third wavers. There was a time when you could have said do you agree with de Beauvoir but there's such a lack of academic reading and historical context in people claiming feminism now that really all you would be doing is diluting FWR and labelling posters as 'good' or 'bad' feminists. That's what Twitter does and what it means is that anything that challenges the patriarchy is shut down.

You are missing the point. No it's not just a case of posting a thread and whatever interests people will attract traffic.

For a group of folk so obsessed with safe spaces and not having them taken over by dominant, aggressive groups, it's amazing how hard it is for you to understand this!

There are three main points from my perspective:

1. I do not feel welcome or safe in the feminist area, because it is dominated by one overwhelming issue, voiced often aggressively. So I simply dont feel able to participate there, never mind post a thread.

1. A lot of what I see there is discriminatory. Yes I know you will claim it isn't but what group has ever accepted they are? Discrimination is almost always justified with arguments about safety, for example (we can't let black people mix with us - our whites women won't be safe; we can't let gay people marry - it is an attack on traditional marriage; we can't teach about gay relationship because it will make our children go madly gay; we can't let immigrants into the country - the crime rate will go up). The disproportionate attention given to the one issue is also a sign of discrimination. . In a world with female slavery, forced circumcision, prostitution, child marriage, unequal wages, and huge level of rape and sexual assault (overwhelmingly experienced in spaces that have nothing to do with trans access) it is ridiculous to justify the passion and vitriol in objective terms. It comes rather from a more primitive place. Since I see the feminism forum as taken over by this discrimination, I am actually not willing to post in it and be associated with it. If these views were not largely limited to the feminism section I would leave Mumsnet entirely.

1. I suspect others feel the same - many afraid to say so. So no, if threads in the feminist section don't get traffic it reflects that people with normal, diverse feminist views have been chased out of the section. Also traffic is not a sign of quality. When an area gets taken over by hyperbole, obsessive thinking and extreme views it generates traffic from others like that - but not the kind of traffic that is beneficial to the community board as a whole...

There is clearly a pretty concerted effort to silence and dismiss posters who don't agree with the orthodoxy

I don't agree. Why don't you start a thread that has nothing to do with genderism and see what happens? I'll support it.

Brave if you don't trust MN moderation - which you obviously don't since you think they allow discrimination to stand - then you will be unhappy no matter how many boards you try to start.
It's funny and I mean boringly repetitive that there are all these threads just waiting to be started but can't be because of the meanie-beanies on FWR. I can't think of any FWR issue that doesn't cross over into other sections from parenting to chat to relationships. Do the people who complain about FWR just not recognise feminism if it isn't labelled? If so, I have news for you, feminist principles run deep across all the boards from telly addicts to books. It's a bit like Hydra but without the handy logos everywhere to help you hunt it down.

There is clearly a pretty concerted effort to silence and dismiss posters who don't agree with the orthodoxy

Or more accurately you are seeing opinion of the 90% and they don't aligne with yours.

discrimination , I would say Thats another false accusation.

To be honest I think the complaints arise precisely because FWR isn't an echo chamber and those who are used to spending time in internet spaces where anything other than blind acquiescence to trans dogma are hounded out are shocked when they find out 90% of the population think it's horse shit and dangerous horse shit at that.

Brave
I'm sorry you don't feel safe, that's not good. My view is that I believe the majority of posters in these sections are passionate, articulate (I'm excluding myself from this category! ) and as I say care deeply about one subject. What does piss me off and is quickly apparent is when I voice a concern and it's dismissed as transphobia. It's mainly my own fault for biting but some may find that aggressive. I would never want that to happen but if a poster chooses to leap to that whilst ignoring my actual concern I get to the point where I don't actually care what they think. If a poster instead engages with me and shows genuine empathy for my view and experience I have all the time in the world for them. Unfortunately this never happens.

I don't think concerns over trans ideology can be compared to either racism or homophobia so I don't have a response to your second point.

Whilst I agree that traffic doesn't mean quality I think your calling opinions like mine hyperbole, obsessive thinking and extreme views very dismissive. I guess in that large traffic volume you could include accusations of transphobia with no acknowledgement of concerns.

I've had my arse handed to me on a plate many times on MN but I won't let that stop me posting and replying.

Yes I know you will claim it isn't but what group has ever accepted they are?

Im not in a group, and i dont think ive sad anything discriminatory...ive seen and heard other posters with a similar mindset to me

But people love to label...ironically

Exactly WeeSleekit they feel threatened by different views. I honestly despair at the way certain groups are sleepwalking into censorship and totalitarianism.

So my last paragraph highlighted particularly well why I'd don't consider myself articulate , the point I tried and failed to make is that on a a thread discussing say, self I'd concerns, for every poster who states a concern and why there will be three or four posters who pop along and say something like "and this shows just how transphobic MN has become ".

A thread like this will also have regulars who are shit hot at providing facts, figures, stats, media resources. Stuff that shows concerns are real and women and kids are being damaged by this stuff. This then generates discussion within a thread. Thread becomes massive.

There is clearly a pretty concerted effort to silence and dismiss posters who don't agree with the orthodoxy.

It's not 'orthodoxy'. It's just people who have a different opinion to you. Using debate which makes you examine your opinions and think about whether you are actually right can help you to clarify those opinions. I enjoy discussing with people who disagree with me simply because it helps to make me clearer in my own mind about my views.

Echo chambers are bad. If you have strong views, put them to those of us who disagree, and let's debate. But you should be prepared to back up your opinions with facts and evidence, otherwise they won't stand up to scrutiny.

🤷‍♀️

In a world with female slavery, forced circumcision, prostitution, child marriage, unequal wages, and huge level of rape and sexual assault (overwhelmingly experienced in spaces that have nothing to do with trans access) it is ridiculous to justify the passion and vitriol in objective terms.

Does 'female slavery' happen to people who are female or people who identify as female?

What is the sex of most people who are forced into prostitution?

What is the sex of most people who are forced into marriage as children?

What is the sex of the people who on average earn lower wages?

What is the sex of the majority of victims of rape and sexual assault? And what is the sex of the majority of perpertrators of these acts?

Can you now see why sex matters?

Using debate which makes you examine your opinions and think about whether you are actually right can help you to clarify those opinions.

Yes, and I'd be delighted to have an open debate.

I'm not delighted to receive PM's warning me off participating in threads about other issues because the OP is "a long standing irritant in the side of most feminist posters".

If you agree "echo chambers are bad" I'm not sure how you can defend that kind of behaviour.

Usual suspects usurp the thread with trans issues and claim 'this never happens

Who said it never happens? Ive obviously missed that

I'm not sure how you can defend that kind of behaviour

Who would defend that! Ive obviously missed that bit as well

I hope you reported it...dreadful behaviour

What was the subject of that thread, Cohle?

Some posters engage in sealioning and trolling. Sealions can look innocent but wear you out and take up your time by playing dumb and constantly asking for explanations and proof. I had a run-in with a sealion once, took me hours to click what was happening. Then I found out that the person was well known for that behaviour (and was a regular on FWR).

OP look on the bright side you've started a thread that's very busy .

But seriously you started a thread and now your all shrugging-shoulder-patronising-emoji at why many of us don't want this topic to be hidden? I get you don't think it's important but I don't really see where else you expected the discussion to go.