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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

999 replies

Jargoyle · 25/01/2020 01:31

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

OP posts:

Thread gallery

YetAnotherSpartacus · 26/01/2020 23:42

I absolutely agree that trans is a priority issue for feminism. I'm not sure separating out 'liberal feminism' and 'gender critical' is useful though. I am gender critical, but it is not how I define my feminism. If anything, I am a socialist feminist. I see other, older issues as just as important (abortion rights, men's violence, women and poverty, division of domestic labour, etc.). and am also disappointed that these are not given as much attention as I think they should be. My honest view is that the trans issue has attracted some 'single-issue feminists' whose feminism is defined by this and who may not be as interested in other issues. Now, some of these women might be radicalised, so to speak, but my guess is that most will lapse into choice feminism or 'fun feminism' at the end of the day, not really having embraced a real understanding and critique of patriarchy. Thus, we will see defences of marriage, women giving up careers to raise children, unequal domestic labour, women giving up their names for men, 'choosing' cosmetic surgery, etc. in the name of 'feminism' because 'it's about choice'. But then, modern rad fems seem to have no problem with engaging with the right over issues like prostitution, porn and trans (my honest feeling is that many don't say as much about abortion as they should for fear of offending their right-wing 'sisters'). Ultimately, I'd like to see issues like men's violence, access to abortion rights and women's poverty being given as much attention as trans, but agree that trans is important - I'm just not sure that many recent feminist converts do care that much.

JulyKit · 26/01/2020 23:43

And just in case that's still not clear to you, @Jargoyle, I'll explain further: sexual attraction to a person, or people, is subjective and mutable. Biological sex, on the other hand, is neither subjective nor mutable.

DiegoSaber · 26/01/2020 23:49

I consider myself to be a massive feminist. I'm gender critical and would probably be described as a terf by TRA activists. I blocked FWR last year because of how dogmatic it has become

Same. People keep saying "just start threads on other topics", but it's just easier to avoid the forum altogether now.

JulyKit · 26/01/2020 23:49

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theflushedzebra · 26/01/2020 23:50

I'm not really sure how a person having an innate feeling that they are the opposite sex translates to women having to accept male born people with penises into any and all female spaces, without question?

One is a person declaring who they are, how they want to present - fine. No problem - wear what you like, call yourself what you like. The other is a person who is factually a member of the opposite sex deciding that they also have the right to spaces and services of those who are actually of that sex, because of how they feel. And that's the problem.

JulyKit · 26/01/2020 23:50

People keep saying "just start threads on other topics", but it's just easier to avoid the forum altogether now.

Well, sure. If you're not really interested in debate, of course it's easier to avoid the forum. No one's asking you to engage with it.

OldCrone · 26/01/2020 23:52

It could very well be a mental illness, but could equally have root in a physical/cognitive cause.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Can you explain?

The cognitive dissonance occurs for me when I attempt to compare it to homosexuality.

That's not really surprising, because it has nothing in common with homosexuality.

Lots of gay people (including my best mate's brother) claim that they 'just knew' they were gay. Trans people often claim that they 'just knew' they were the opposite sex.

This has already been explained to you by JulyKit, but just in case you need another explanation, being gay means being attracted to the same sex. There's nothing mystical about it, it's simply sexual attraction. Believing that you actually are the opposite sex is either a delusion or requires a mystical belief in a gendered soul which has been born in the wrong body.

DiegoSaber · 26/01/2020 23:53

Well, sure. If you're not really interested in debate, of course it's easier to avoid the forum

Perhaps I would be interested in debate but just not knowledgable or assertive enough to attempt to completely change the entire forum?

JulyKit · 26/01/2020 23:55

Perhaps I would be interested in debate but just not knowledgable or assertive enough to attempt to completely change the entire forum?

Why would you want to 'change the entire forum'?

Do you also want to change the whole of MN because not every topic discussed is of direct interest to you?

As for lacking knowledge: you know it's fine to start threads by asking questions, right?

DiegoSaber · 26/01/2020 23:56

What? I was just saying I too find the forum dogmatic. As well as unwelcoming and generally confrontational. (A point perfectly demonstrated by you here). I wasn't asking for advice on how I might be able to do something about it.

nolongersurprised · 26/01/2020 23:58

The other is a person who is factually a member of the opposite sex deciding that they also have the right to spaces and services of those who are actually of that sex, because of how they feel. And that's the problem.

And everyone has to pretend that these people have changed sex even though humans can’t change sex. And if they don’t, or can’t pretend because the cognitive dissonance is too great then they are called names, or accused of hate speech, or threatened.

DisinterestedParty · 26/01/2020 23:58

@diego but why do you want to change it? It's not yours.

Forums are made up of the people that use them. Complaining that it doesn't suit your needs and should change is quite arrogant.

Start the topics you want to see and if people are interested, they'll come.

I feel like every few months, this topic is brought up, that the feminism topic isn't what it should be. And then the people complaining just disappear.

Shrug. If you aren't going to be the change you want to see, you can't really complain.

DiegoSaber · 27/01/2020 00:00

but why do you want to change it? It's not yours

Shrug. If you aren't going to be the change you want to see, you can't really complain

There are lots of insignificant things in life that I wish were different/better, but don't care enough about to attempt to change them. This is just one of them.

OldCrone · 27/01/2020 00:01

I feel like every few months, this topic is brought up, that the feminism topic isn't what it should be.

But none of the people saying this have said what they would like to see discussed. Let alone started a thread about it.

theflushedzebra · 27/01/2020 00:02

Read, listen to podcasts. If you're not a feminist, your views are unlikely to fit into a feminist forum tbh. And If you're not a feminist, you are going to have to accept that your views will be argued with by the prevailing posters on a forum named "feminism chat". I don't really know what more I can say to help you.

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women. Women are adult human females.

JulyKit · 27/01/2020 00:04

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JulyKit · 27/01/2020 00:05

There are lots of insignificant things in life that I wish were different/better, but don't care enough about to attempt to change them. This is just one of them.

For someone who finds feminism 'insignificant', you seem quite exercised by its existence...

BanKittenHeels · 27/01/2020 00:06

Just want to add my voice to the thread in asking MN to keep FWR as it is.

theflushedzebra · 27/01/2020 00:08

I don't join MRA sites and expect to be accepted in a friendly way, as an "opposing viewpoint." Because I'm not an MRA, I'm a feminist So I stick to the FWR forum on Mumsnet. I find it female-centred, (I find the whole of Mumsnet to be a female-centred site- which is a good thing - its not like women dominate the internet) and generally a place I feel at home.

DiegoSaber · 27/01/2020 00:08

theflushedzebra

I've no idea how anything you said relates to what I said. Maybe you're confusing me with another poster.

JulyKit my god you're defensive/argumentative.

'dogmatic' implies that everyone agrees with each other, confrontational' implies quite the opposite

You're reaching. Clearly the group pushing the dogma will be confrontational to anyone who doesn't follow it. Like they all have been to OP in this thread.

To say you'd like to engage with a forum, but only if you can change it completely does sound a little... grandiose

I didn't say I want to change it. In fact, quite the opposite. I said I've no interest in trying to change it and that's why I avoid it!

Do you take that view to many forums/spaces for discussion, or is it only when women are discussing women's rights that you think the whole forum should be altered to suit your needs? And do you read all questions as 'confrontational', or do you just see them as such when you understand that they're posed by women (and feminist women at that shock)?

Yawn. I don't even know what you're going on about. My very first post in this thread was saying I agree with someone who said "I consider myself to be a massive feminist. I'm gender critical and would probably be described as a terf by TRA activists"

DiegoSaber · 27/01/2020 00:09

For someone who finds feminism 'insignificant', you seem quite exercised by its existence

Wow, you really twist yourself into knots to put words into people's mouths.

theflushedzebra · 27/01/2020 00:10

Pistonheads does not get this shit. Just saying.

OldCrone · 27/01/2020 00:13

Clearly the group pushing the dogma will be confrontational to anyone who doesn't follow it. Like they all have been to OP in this thread.

What 'dogma' do you think people are 'pushing'?

And if you start a thread with a controversial opinion, you can expect some people to disagree with you. Do you think the OP thought that everyone would be saying they agreed, when the FWR board is one of the most popular on MN?

theflushedzebra · 27/01/2020 00:15

Are you a feminist, Diego? Do you agree that feminism is the political movement for the emancipation of women, and that women are adult human females, born female?

If yes, you'll be right at home in the FWR section.

JulyKit · 27/01/2020 00:15

This reply has been deleted

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