To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

I think many women care about the above threat, the issue just isn’t as all-consuming to them as it is for many posters on FWR.

The thing is, I largely agree with most of you in regards to self-ID. What I can't get behind is all the attempts to portray trans people as mentally ill etc. The same was said of gay people but a few decades ago.

I'm worried about the extent it has become a fashion accessory for the young, but until we better understand it I don't think we be so sure it is the same as anorexia etc. It may be, but let's be honest, most people's attempts to frame it as such is because of an agenda. I understand and share the concerns behind that agenda but I can't behind the reduction of trans people's existence to an illness.

The thing is, I largely agree with most of you in regards to self-ID. What I can't get behind is all the attempts to portray trans people as mentally ill etc. The same was said of gay people but a few decades ago.

I'm worried about the extent it has become a fashion accessory for the young, but until we better understand it I don't think we be so sure it is the same as anorexia etc. It may be, but let's be honest, most people's attempts to frame it as such is because of an agenda. I understand and share the concerns behind that agenda but I can't behind the reduction of trans people's existence to an illness.

But being gay (ie. Only attracted to people of the same sex as yourself) is absolutely nothing to do with being transgender.

Being transgender is objectively far closer to something like anorexia or body dysmorphia, in that you feel that there is something wrong with your body that can be 'corrected' with some sort of action.

Being gay is just about what you like.

Plus, I don't get the whole 'mental illness' thing either. On the one hand we are told that if we don't do what trans people want, particularly 'trans children' then they will kill themselves. The threat of suicide is a huge part of the rhetoric around trans issues. That is a pretty big association with mental illness if you ask me. But on the other hand, don't dare say that being transgender is a mental illness because then you are just like the homophobes of days gone by.

It doesn't make any sense and just smacks to me of people trying any tactic they can to silence discussion around the issue.

CallofDoodee thank you. You have summarised what I wanted to say far better than I could have.

I don't think that trans people are mentally ill either. Well, some I have known clearly were and are, but as with transsexual and voyeur, the two states are not the same.

What I do think is that a lot of people at a very confused and confusing time of their lives, when they are being subjected to hormonal imbalance as part of the process of adolescence, are being made the victims of charlatans who tell them that the reason they are going through this entirely natural and normal mental upheaval and are unhappy and uncomfortable with their bodies' development is that there is something wrong with their bodies, and that radical surgery and powerful drugs which have unknown side-effects can correct this for them.

What the charlatans' motives are for this concerted attempt to turn adolescence into evidence of body-dysmorphia I have no idea, though in some cases it seems fairly obvious and thoroughly reprehensible.

but I can't behind the reduction of trans people's existence to an illness.

So what do you mean? Gender dysphoria is recognised disorder - it's what the GRA2004 was brought in for - the circa 5000 people in the UK who have the severest gender dysphoria that transition is required to relieve the symptoms and allow them a comfortable life, with ID documents that match the gender role they have adopted.

That is far, far away from the situation we have now - where self ID is being pushed from a great height - and young children are being told they can choose their gender, and women are being told there is such thing as a "female penis" and it's owner is a woman, and in the changing room, or hospital ward with you, or providing intimate care to your elderly mother, or performing your smear test or mammogram.

I understand and share the concerns behind that agenda but I can't behind the reduction of trans people's existence to an illness.

It’s one of those paradoxes though, isn’t it? Being trans is simultaneously not an illness yet in children the proposed pathways are all medical - stopping natural puberty, giving hormones of the opposite sex, maybe surgery. And those medical pathways are lifelong. And yet the same not-an-illness gender dysphoria in older, middle aged men doesn’t require any medical intervention at all, just feelz.

What I can't get behind is all the attempts to portray trans people as mentally ill etc

What I can’t get behind is the wholesale abandoning of young people with sex focused body dysmorphia. Because of the “affirm at all costs” push (as opposed to watchful waiting combined with counselling) vulnerable young people and adults are not accessing desperately needed SEMH care.
Instead, they have professionals across multiple agencies agreeing with them and authorising life changing medical and surgical interventions.

I’m worried about the extent it has become a fashion accessory for the young, but until we better understand it I don't think we be so sure it is the same as anorexia etc. It may be, but let's be honest, most people's attempts to frame it as such is because of an agenda. I understand and share the concerns behind that agenda but I can't behind the reduction of trans people's existence to an illness.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that rather a lot of us on FWR have a child with GI issues /GD. It is absolutely not and agenda for most people and I rather resent that. The FWR board is a place of great support for parents like me- certainly a million times better than Twitter where I get a death threat on average once a week

And again, for the hard of thinking...

There is NO feminism without critique of gender. So yes, if y'all need a new board to avoid hearing a critique of the reification of gender, go for it, but don't delude yourself you're 'doing feminism'.

This is an extremely informative, reasoned interview with a former Tavistock worker.

This is the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to gender confused children. Lots of children are gender confused during puberty, studies show that around 80% will desist naturally having completed puberty - hence the former NHS response of "watchful waiting".

This has been replaced by "affirmation" - which leads almost all gender dysphoric, or gender confused children onto the transition pathway - regardless of co-exiting mental health issues, such as anxiety, depression, or most disturbingly, child sexual abuse.

For further information - see the controversy over Mermaids charity, and their endorsement of Dr Helen Webberley - who has been convicted of running an illegal clinic in the UK, but is reportedly still running an offshore service to young people, and reportedly providing puberty blocking drugs to children often on as little as a 45 min online webchat.

This is a serious cause for concern for mothers, or parents, on Mumsnet.

All of the information I have posted, is available online. It has been discussed on Panorama, Newsnight and numerous websites.

Helen Webberley was fined £12k for running an illegal clinic, and I believe disallowed from operating in the UK. I believe she is now operating from Madrid, providng an online/postal service.

Trans-activists crowd-funded to pay the £12k fine for her.

What the charlatans' motives are for this concerted attempt to turn adolescence into evidence of body-dysmorphia I have no idea, though in some cases it seems fairly obvious and thoroughly reprehensible.

I think it's all to do with this paradox:

It’s one of those paradoxes though, isn’t it? Being trans is simultaneously not an illness yet in children the proposed pathways are all medical - stopping natural puberty, giving hormones of the opposite sex, maybe surgery. And those medical pathways are lifelong. And yet the same not-an-illness gender dysphoria in older, middle aged men doesn’t require any medical intervention at all, just feelz.

Many of these middle-aged men start off with cross-dressing, and progress (sometimes) to hormonal treatment and (occasionally) to surgery such as facial feminisation surgery and (very rarely) to genital surgery. The reaction of many people to such men, particularly if they have wives and children which many of them do, is fairly unsympathetic. Transgender children on the other hand, with the 'born in the wrong body' narrative - who wouldn't be sympathetic towards a child with such distress?

The transgender movement needs child recruits. There have always been a few boys who wanted to be girls and an even smaller number of girls who wanted to be boys. But those few aren't enough. Capitalising on the distress and unhappiness that many adolescents experience around puberty was a great opportunity.

This video is a transactivist explaining how this works - "trans youth take the 'sex' out of the trans experience". In other words if you want to legitimise your fetish, make sure it is seen as the same thing as gender dysphoria in children and adolescents, because that isn't about sex. The video should start at the right point, if not, go to 6.54 (unless you really want to watch the whole thing).

What I can't get behind is all the attempts to portray trans people as mentally ill etc

You're so worried about transpeople being stigmatised that you happily stigmatise people who have mental illnesses.

Most people I know have some mental illness or other, depression and anxiety being the most common, but I have friends with schizophrenia and bipolar condition. Saying that the idea that one was born in the wrong body is obviously a problem of the mind is not turning people into pariahs or making less of their problem.

"I consider myself to be a massive feminist. I'm gender critical and would probably be described as a terf by TRA activists. I blocked FWR last year because of how dogmatic it has become."

This pretty much describes me.

I for one am in favor of differentiating between those who self ID as feminists and those who are Feminists.

And anybody is free to google Ray Blanchard's work on autogynophelia, or search for it on Mumsnet. If they would like to know more.

What I can't get behind is all the attempts to portray trans people as mentally ill etc.

What do you think is happening if someone is totally convinced that they are something that they are not?

What I can't get behind is all the attempts to portray trans people as mentally ill etc.

Oh dear. Well, you might want to take that up with Marcus Evans, erstwhile member of the Board of Governors of The Tavistock and Portman NHS, which hosts the National Health Service’s Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS).

As a psychotherapist, I consulted with various mental health services that managed patients exhibiting challenging behaviours. In this capacity, I observed that patients who had a history of serious and enduring mental illness or personality disorder sometimes would also develop gender dysphoria. A common theme in their presentations was the belief that physical treatments would remove or resolve aspects of themselves that caused them psychic pain. When such medical interventions failed to remove their psychological problems, the disappointment could lead to an escalation of self-harm and suicidal ideation, as resentment and hatred toward themselves was acted out in relation to their bodies.

Forgot link

quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

What do you think is happening if someone is totally convinced that they are something that they are not?

As I said upthread, we just don't know at this point. It could very well be a mental illness, but could equally have root in a physical/cognitive cause.

The cognitive dissonance occurs for me when I attempt to compare it to homosexuality. With the absence of any physical causation, one could quite easily argue that homosexuality is also a mental illness, as it's also all about feelz. Lots of gay people (including my best mate's brother) claim that they 'just knew' they were gay. Trans people often claim that they 'just knew' they were the opposite sex.

I'm starting to think it'd be an interesting experiment to have two feminism boards, 'gender critical' and 'liberal'. The only rule would be that on the 'liberal' board you can't say anything gender critical - otherwise threads can be whatever people want them to be on either board. I'd like to see what kind of things get discussed on the liberal board and how it differs from GC.

Sure, NotTerfNorCis - I think that' an excellent idea.

Then all the feminists that feel they can't join in in FWR can post all the issues they desperately want to discuss on that board. A perfect solution.

How about "Feminism Chat" And "LibFem Chat" ?

Jargoyle: What I can't get behind is all the attempts to portray trans people as mentally ill etc. The same was said of gay people but a few decades ago

and then

one could quite easily argue that homosexuality is also a mental illness, as it's also all about feelz

Which is it?

and Lots of gay people (including my best mate's brother) just screams out "I have lots of good friends who are gay!"

Pin down your message. What are you trying to say?

Lots of gay people (including my best mate's brother) claim that they 'just knew' they were gay. Trans people often claim that they 'just knew' they were the opposite sex.

It’s a false conflation though. Gay is about who you are attracted to. Human beings can’t change sex, however much people may “know” they are the opposite sex, they aren’t.

The acceptance of people being gay means that society needs to appreciate that sexual attraction is complicated. The degree of acceptance that TRAs want means that they demand that everyone accept that transwomen are women, that people can change sex.