To feel frustrated with the UK secondary system?

[flyingfoxes]

I'm from the US, and we moved here when DD was in preschool. Since she started school I've struggled with understanding how she's performing in school (one year we got a yearly report with "2a" or "2b" type grades to show how she was doing, which was helpful, but it was scrapped right after). The teachers always just said she was doing fine. She did well enough in the SATs but it was the first time we had hard evidence of how she was performing, and it was too late after the fact to help her with any specific areas, like maths, to give her a boost.

She's now in year 10. Since she started secondary, I've been given a number of progress reports that are essentially "work ethic" reports and an annual progress report that says whether or not she's meeting her own personalised targets. When I've asked to know what those targets are, the school got cagey and said they weren't allowed to tell me. What? Why? But I was assured that she's doing fine and once she started GCSEs that we'd finally find out her predicted grades.

So... we've finally gotten those, yay. Except... they're not nearly as high as they could be. And her predicted grades will determine what A levels she can take, which determine what university courses she can take, and I'm overwhelmed at the idea that at 14 her life choices are already being narrowed down so significantly... based on predicted grades for an exam she hasn't even sat yet.

I posted about this in the education section and was told not to even try a chemistry A level with a predicted grade of 5+ on the GCSEs. But... that's what she wants to do, is study chemistry. How can it already be decided so soon?!

When I was 14 in the US, I had no flipping clue what I wanted to do in life. I did okay (not as well as I could have done), but then excelled at university, came to the UK and got a masters with distinction from a Russell group university. If I had closed off that possibility at 14, my life would be very, very different than it is now.

Anyway, I'm just frustrated -- that I never knew how DD was performing, didn't help her sooner (I was told she was doing fine!), and now she's going to have to work extra hard to get to where she should be. I just wish we had better signposts here (a letter grade here and there would be nice!) or more flexible options for university age kids. Am I being massively unreasonable?

Sorry, I don't understand - you had no idea of the ability of your child until they got to Y10? You are a reasonably clued up person with an MA yet you need teachers to tell you whether your child is a level material or not!!

And GCSE predictions determine nothing.

Your DD is in Yr10. Her grade predictions are likely to be wildly inaccurate. They also tend to be based on SATs. You won't get a reasonable idea of what's possible until the last parents' evening in Yr11.

5+ just means they think she'll get a 5 or higher in Chemistry. Doesn't tell you how higher - in fact 5+ is what they told my DD in Yr10 and she got a 7. (Still wouldn't do A level Chemistry with that, but still).

This is why I love the Scottish high school system. My children have been able to pick subjects up and no subject is ‘closed off to them’. It’s been changed over the last few years and more adaptable than it used to be when I was at school, you can sit National 5 exams in 4th, 5th and 6th year. As well as higher and advanced highers in 6th year if you wish.

It’s a much better system than we’ve previously had.

Is she in a state school or private? Can you afford to switch? I can't see you making much headway getting a shift of policy on this from an enormous UK secondary school.

We're expats living here too (one of us is from the US too) and I'm still slightly mystified by a country with such a huge population having such a homogenous education system.

I agree - that sounds awful that your DD is being closed in like that. In your position I would investigate the private sector around your area if at all possible.

Chemistry is one of the hardest subjects to study at A level and beyond. But if it is her passion, maybe get her a tutor to make sure she gets the GCSE level stuff right?

I agree. For younger kids it's all measured against their own personal targets, so you don’t know where they sit in the class / world. I think it’s stupid too. Though you should have been given or been able to ask this once she got to secondary. Year 6 SATS are the first time they are really pitted against each other.

Did the secondary school reports not contain predicted gcse grades? That would give you an idea at least.

Chemistry is a ridiculously tough a level. You weren’t allowed to do it in my school unless you got a/a*

The British system is very convenient for the people who run it. Parents given no meaningful feedback until it's too late.

When I was in school (in a different time and country) in both primary and secondary marks and class rankings were published on the class noticeboards. It was a desire to get to the top of the rankings in my state primary that led to me working hard in primary, and getting grades that got me scholarships that paid 80% of my private secondary school costs.

Also, I remember from about age 8 onwards having exams I had to pass to proceed to the next year. There was no such thing as shuffling people into the next year regardless of their performance. (While I don't remember exams at younger ages, it was definitely the case that children were held back if they weren't considered good enough to advance to the next year.)

I've just checked, and I still have my primary school report cards. Looking at my year 3 report, and there are marks out of 100 in 8 subjects. Now that's feedback.

Not unreasonable. I detest secondary education in this country, it’s too narrow and offers no scope for choices or changes after age 13/14. It’s insane.
Book a conversation with her head of year and get a thorough understanding of where she’s at so you can support where necessary.

@downthedirtroad Yeah, I guess that's basically it. I've looked at the KS material for each year and worked with her at various stages and she seemed to be doing okay, I've attended every parent teacher meeting and get vague "she's doing fine" responses. But what does "fine" mean? She's never gotten grades until now -- I can see how for some children a predicted 5 is fine but it isn't when she wants to study science at university.

@pointythings if she doesn't do an A level, it limits what university courses she can do though, doesn't it? From looking at uni websites it doesn't seem she can apply with a bunch of humanities A levels. Is teenage motivation always a good indicator of adult motivation/performance? Do a lot of people take A levels later if they want to change degrees? (These questions aren't directed at you specifically, I just find it baffling that kids can be limited so early in life.)

YANBU because the recent changes mean school predictions are a bit labyrinthian. However GCSE predictions are only an indicator and actual GCSE results will determine which A levels are an option. She needs to ensure she gets a 7 in any science she wishes to take at A level. She's yr10 now so there is time to improve.

If she's only just started KS4, her predicted grades are not going to be very accurate. And there's lots of time to improve. Look at her attitude to learning, the amount of effort she puts in. consider if she knows how to work effectively and if she understands how to revise for tests. Predicted grades are a guideline, not an absolute.

You didn't write on your thread in Secondary Education that your daughter was only in Year 10, and I suspect the responders will all have assumed that she was in Year 11 as Secondary Education is currently full of talk about mocks and applying to sixth forms (for Y11). Go back to the thread and clarify this (or start a new on) and I guarantee you will get some different answers!

I suspect DS is a particular edge case, but his predicted GCSE grades move up and down like yoyos. In one subject he went from a 3 to a 7 in the space of a year. And he wrote down what he thought for predicted grades. I'm not sure that these are even checked if you are at a state school (they are generally keen on getting all their places filled).

Did you never have an inkling of where your daughter was relative to her peers? Does she go to a school that doesn't set?

Teachers never reported on performance relative to others in my school, but everybody knew where they sat.

Surely her actual grades determine her A-level choices, not predicted grades anyway, are you not worrying too soon?

You haven't said if your DD is doing double or triple science. If doing triple it might increase her chances of being able to do A-Level Chemistry by changing to double science.

Thank you everyone for the responses. I'm glad I'm not alone!

@RedskyAtnight I didn't know predicted grades were so changeable, that's great to hear! (I did email the science teacher asking if they were today, but haven't heard back yet.) I phoned the sixth form we're hoping for her to get into and they categorically will not accept her with less than the required predicted grades for that course. They did say she could apply for different courses and then request to switch, but it wasn't a guarantee.

When you looked at secondary schools did you not check how your chosen school informs parents of progress and predicted grades? You're clearly an intelligent woman, so why have you not contacted her form tutor, head of year or management team to raise your concerns before year 10? - you've had over 3 years to do so. My daughter is in year 11, I have known of her ability from my own judgement and confirmed by schools ever since she was small - `SATS results, she also sat the 11+ which I appreciate isn't standard and end of year exams etc. She is predicted 10x grade 9's and 2x grade 8's. This hasn't come as a surprise as our school communicates and as a parent I ask, query, debate etc.
if anything, its good that you've found out at the start of term 2 in yr10. That gives you time to get onto the head of science and ask how the school are working to improve science grades and what plan can be in place for your DD.

Sounds like a shit secondary school to me. I will come back to this later as I have to go out now.

YABU just because there is no UK wide system for grading children.

Here in Wales children sit national tests every year from year 2, there's no pressure on schools for these tests so it really is about benchmarking children against themselves and seeing how they perform against their peer group. At least this has been my experience and that of my friends and their children.

Every term we have a report card with attainment levels and effort grading.

At age 12 I know exactly how my daughter is performing without stalking the school.

I do agree about closing off options and making decisions so young that affect the rest of your life though. If they choose the "wrong" path age 14 it could take years of work to realign with a field that is more suitable for their skills/abilities/personalities/ambitions etc

And her predicted grades will determine what A levels she can take

Is that what the school have actually said? I can only speak from my own and friends experiences but I have not heard of this. IME A levels subjects depend on actual results not predictions, that sounds very wrong and would make little sense. Could there have been a misunderstanding?

I hear you OP! The secondary school system in the uk was the main reason I RAN back to Ireland!! I hate it and like that I CANNOT understand how a 14 year old can be told/asked what path to choose!! It’s like they write them off without seeing what they can actually do!! I am so glad my dc don’t have to go through it!! I’m sorry you are finding it disheartening and frustrating

I agsolutely agree. I am also not from the UK and primary was in general a disaster, until Y4 we had hardly any idea and then only because her teacher was telling us a lot more than the usual "she is doing fine, exactly where she is supposed to be". Yeah, if you think below average is acceptable, that's great. We did a lot of work with DD, tutoring her and by Y6 she managed to be average.

Come secondary and I finally hoped for proper grades, Y8 and still hardly anything. We do get "x out of Y" in tests but we don't know if that is a decent score or not. We had to check with all teachers after the end of year tests to understand why she underperformed and what the reasons were and esp how to help her.

Like you I am afraid that with bad GSCE choices her A level ones are limited, quite a bad idea, just to get the school to show good results. I changed my mind what I wanted to do so often between 14- 17. We did A-levels based on our interest within obvious mandatory subjects or topic groups.

Argh!

Teachers have been banned from referring back to GCSE grades to try to integrate new system.
New system is PANTS and there is no good in it but
A** = 9 should be very rare - 0.1% of population but isn't due to hothoused kids and low grade boundaries. Research 'standard deviation'.
A* = 8
A = 7
B = 6
C = 5 this is the old (not v old) pass mark. Grade for some upmarket a level and uni admissions.
C = 4 this is the new pass mark. See standard deviation and much harder exams (x3 content). Grade for most a level admission and uni.
D = 3
E = 2
F/g = 1
These grades have value in colleges. Many kids get only 1s 2s and 3s and go on to have fine lives.

Some schools scale above down through the school with kid generally going up 2/3rds of grade a year. E.g. excellent year 7 = 6

NC and GCSE grades system was much better but jobsworths at govt must make big changes often to justify their jobs. I've been teaching 29 years! Seen many changes have I!

I'm American & share OP's dismay if not specific criticisms.
I had plenty feedback from earlier age how mine were doing... but yeah, the system funnels them way to early. I deplore emphasis on final exams. I tried to explain to my baffled 11yo today how our final leaving grades (from American high school) are based on 4 years of consistent hard work & literally thousands of pieces of evaluated homework assignments, quizzes, tests, projects, essays.... I will never like the final-exam-is-everything system that prevails in UK.

The good news is there are alternative pathways into similar careers, if she can't ever get the GCSEs to get onto A-level chemistry, then maybe not a chemistry degree but could still plan to be a lab technician (still get to play with chemicals & see if they go poof). Maybe can't get onto chemistry A-levels, but might be able to do foundation year to access a Uni science course that involves a lot of chemistry. There turn out to be other paths they just aren't as obvious.

If you had done it again I would have avoided schools with 'pathways' where school bands kids into high medium and low and then offers routes to different groups.

And targets sounds v woolly too. It was probably 'I will try to do better at probability' or some such thing. 'I will work on improving my attendance'.
Schools are run by heads. Academics more so. That's also why nc was scrapped supposedly too rigid but ends up with massive variation school to school. Exam boards streamline it a bit but schools can and do choose which courses to offer.

What is this UK or British school system you're talking about? I'm assuming you're having an issue with the English system?