To feel frustrated with the UK secondary system?

[flyingfoxes]

I'm from the US, and we moved here when DD was in preschool. Since she started school I've struggled with understanding how she's performing in school (one year we got a yearly report with "2a" or "2b" type grades to show how she was doing, which was helpful, but it was scrapped right after). The teachers always just said she was doing fine. She did well enough in the SATs but it was the first time we had hard evidence of how she was performing, and it was too late after the fact to help her with any specific areas, like maths, to give her a boost.

She's now in year 10. Since she started secondary, I've been given a number of progress reports that are essentially "work ethic" reports and an annual progress report that says whether or not she's meeting her own personalised targets. When I've asked to know what those targets are, the school got cagey and said they weren't allowed to tell me. What? Why? But I was assured that she's doing fine and once she started GCSEs that we'd finally find out her predicted grades.

So... we've finally gotten those, yay. Except... they're not nearly as high as they could be. And her predicted grades will determine what A levels she can take, which determine what university courses she can take, and I'm overwhelmed at the idea that at 14 her life choices are already being narrowed down so significantly... based on predicted grades for an exam she hasn't even sat yet.

I posted about this in the education section and was told not to even try a chemistry A level with a predicted grade of 5+ on the GCSEs. But... that's what she wants to do, is study chemistry. How can it already be decided so soon?!

When I was 14 in the US, I had no flipping clue what I wanted to do in life. I did okay (not as well as I could have done), but then excelled at university, came to the UK and got a masters with distinction from a Russell group university. If I had closed off that possibility at 14, my life would be very, very different than it is now.

Anyway, I'm just frustrated -- that I never knew how DD was performing, didn't help her sooner (I was told she was doing fine!), and now she's going to have to work extra hard to get to where she should be. I just wish we had better signposts here (a letter grade here and there would be nice!) or more flexible options for university age kids. Am I being massively unreasonable?

In our 6th form you get an offer of a place according to predicted grades but nothing is confirmed until the results come in. So if they get better results they can change their course (and if they don’t they have to choose a different course). Also sometimes they’ve changed their minds over the summer about what they want to do.

There’s a fair bit of chopping and changing to be honest, even for the first couple of months of A levels!

But I have to agree school reports in England aren’t great - they seem to change the format every year so it’s very hard to compare.

Predicted grades are just guess work. No one knows what will happen on the day. If they sat an actual GCSE paper in year 10 they shouldn't be able to answer some of the questions as they won't have finished the curriculum.

Grades can be improved upon, Ds1 is testament to that. He just put in a bit of extra work over year 10 and 11 and came out with incredible results. His "flight path" from his SATs were much lower than his actual grades, English should have been 4 or 5 he got an 8, maths should have been a 6 he got a 9. Learning is not linear. Flight paths are guesswork.

But the good news is your daughter can turn this around. You describe her as lazy but if she wants to do a science A level then she will need to put the work in now to increase her grade. She has plenty of time before her GCSEs.

Check the sixth form for their requirements, Ds1's sixth form wanted a 6 at GCSE for sciences. He only did the combined but got 9,9. He is doing physics A level and isn't struggling at all.

I thought I had a good understanding of school grading but like the OP I find it confusing. DS1 has had the same predicted for some subjects from the first term he'd ever done some of them eg French as he does now, 3 years on. I appreciate that KS2 SATS might be an indicator but that good?

Spider: We have EQAO (Province wide testing in Ontario) in grades 3, 6, and 9 for English and Math. In grade 10, all students must take a literacy test. Otherwise, teachers (who are University educated to a degree-level along with Teacher's College) are trusted to carry out the curriculum. Literacy rates in Canada are amongst the highest in the world.

While the education system is not perfect (the current Ontario government seems keen to systematically destroy and privatize it), in my experience it is miles ahead of the system in place in England.

Predicted grades matter - because pupils get their sixth form offers that are dependent on them. One of mine did not have great predicted grades and was turned down from several sixth form places because of them. She only got one offer and that was only because she lied at the interview and said that the teacher was new and didn’t know her work well. Otherwise that school wasn’t going to offer her a place either. (Got 9 GCSEs, all As and Bs, so more than fine)

Reporting in secondary schools is absolutely ridiculous. There is no standardisation or consistency and every school made up developed their own system.

My children’s school gives every student a “flightpath” (something like 5-7, 7-9) based on SATs and CATs, which I understand as a parent. School report to us how the kids are doing in relation to their flightpath. All good.

I am also a teacher at secondary school and have recently changed schools. I still don’t understand the reporting! Luckily we don’t share targets with parents so at the moment it looks to me like we could be OPs school: Tell parents everything is fine as kids are “on target”, but don’t tell them the target is for example a 3 - which is not even a pass. I can see lots of disgruntled parents in my future!

@SpiderHunter

In Ireland the first state exams a child sits is the “junior certificate” which is the GCSE equivalent. Usually sat at the age 15/16

Then they sit they sit the “leaving certificate” at age 17/18/possibly19(age can vary based on start of school age and whether they do 4th year of secondary school)

Im not quite sure how school performance in secondary schools is measured. I’m presuming by the results of the exams which are corrected externally by an examination board.

But we don’t do “predictions” on grades as such. We sit mock exams for each cycle (usually in the feb before the exams which are sat in June) and do you can gauge how you are doing and whether you need to work harder etc.

The leaving certificate is somewhat the equivalent of the a levels- although I think a leaving certificate subject is essentially 3/4 of an a level. We have to do at least 6 subjects (some ppl do 8 or 9!) 3 of which are English, Irish and maths (they used to stipulate a foreign language but they have removed that) and then you pick another 3.

So if you were more science minded you could do chemistry, physics or biology.

If you were language based then you could do say French, Spanish and business etc

But they don’t determine what you can do in university as such... I have a friend that did
English, Irish, maths, French, business, home economics and biology - she did an architecture degree
I also have a friend who did english, Irish, maths, French, music, business and biology and she did medicine.
I did- English, Irish, maths, French, business, geography, home economics and biology.- I did primary school teaching.

Also if you “fail your junior cert” you can still go on and complete your leaving certificate. 🤷‍♀️

On our reports for KS3 students, parents are told if their children are essentially beneath the expected standard, on target for the expected standard, exceeding or exceptional. But it isn’t made clear to them how that equates to grades and what that might mean for GCSEs and future prospects. It is very, very different from the US system, where at any time a teacher could tell me a letter grade based on the average percentage I had achieved so far.

We have a U.K. relative staying with us at the moment and the U.K. secondary system confuses me as well.

In my children’s school in Australia, in primary, there’s a scale of attainment ranging from “developing” which is a D grade to “exceeding” which is an A. By high school it’s all just straightforward A-D grades. In parent-teacher interviews though, it’s very clear where they’re at, with teachers saying, “Right now, in English, they’re sitting at a B+ and to get to an A they need to do this”.

It’s also hard to get an A, although there is inter-school variability. To get one the child has to have demonstrated that they are consistently capable working of 2 years ahead of the curriculum, not just that they get everything correct on grade-level assessments. Most children get C grades.

OP, I would be annoyed too. It’s impossible to track how your child is doing if the benchmarks shift around or aren’t clear to begin with.

For those who are from other countries, what country-wide exams do the pupils sit?
Where I am from, there is a universal examination on leaving the school, but it is not necessarily used for university admissions. Universities can set their own entrance papers that take place over the final term in the final school year. All of the decent universities set their own exams, and anyone can sit them (if they had completed their secondary education) irrespective of their actual leaving grades, and not necessarily being a recent school leaver.
There is no option to choose subjects you are taking in the high school (maths, physics, chemistry, biology, history, geography, literature, PE, the national language and one foreign language are compulsory), but you can attend extra-curriculars in the subjects that interest you. Such extra-curricular classes are free and often ran by the "specialist" schools for students from the whole "borough" (for the lack of a better equivalent), and they are quite useful (but by no means essential) for the university admissions. In order to complete secondary education, you are required to "pass" the leaving exams in the local language, maths, history and at least two subjects ("pass" would be probably a "C" on the A-level scale of difficulty, as far as I can judge). "Specialist" schools can force the choice of those two subjects on their students. There's no "soft" options for the secondary school, and there is no art, music, ICT or sport tuition within the school system either.

@flyingfoxes - sorry haven't rtft

My son just started A levels this year, and wants to progress to biomedical science at uni. He's always done well in school but ill health and a couple of surgeries (last one right before year 11 mocks) lowered his predicted grades massively. Between the mocks and final exams he buddied with a friend and they set a study schedule after we sat with his triple science teachers and combed through his strength and weaknesses. 3 times a week they'd walk to the main library in town and study for 2 hours. He also has a part time job (his choice since he was 14)

He walked away with 7s across the board and was absolutely thrilled, as were we. He's doing so well in college, the standard of teaching is incredibly more focused.

You have so much time to turn things around if your dd has the discipline to work for it.

They are so young to make forever decisions but they can have ambitions and reach them with the right mentality. My son was more stubborn about not doing resits and pushed himself and it paid off.

Good luck to your dd.

@SpiderHunter, well in Germany there is no such thing as league tables for school (as far as I remember from friends).

We sat tests during the year, got marks 1-6 with 1 the highest and tests had to be signed by parents until GCSE level so parents knew exactly if I brought home constantly the same grades or if a D was a one off or a sign of struggle. Twice annual reports, again 1-6 marks.

GCSE is now standardised in Germany, similar to A-level but by country, not nationwide but the standards are very similar.

Uniapplication depends on your overall mark of four subjects you study during Sixth form equivalent.

Our secondary had twice annual parent evenings

We got grades after each test and grades for the year ranging from 1 to 10, 10 (equivalent of A*) meaning that the child fully mastered the curriculum for the year and there were very few mistakes in his end of year test, 9 or 8 meant mostly mastered and getting good results in the tests with a few minor mistskes, 5 was a pass and anything lower required intervention. Parents would get the results for each subject three times a year and were made aware of end of term tests results. It also helped that everyone adheres to a national curriculum and all schools will be teaching the same topics in the year (like the French system). So was easy to understand where thr child was in terms of attainment as a 10 in maths in one school would be the 10 in math in the other one too. Leaving exams at the end of years eqiuvalent to GSCE and A level were national wide taken at the same time, etc, but the sample assessment papers were available to teachers for the years in between. The end of year grade was a combination of results of all tests during the year and homework and classwork assessments, so if you had a bad day on the end of year exam, the work you did throughout the year was taken in consideration.

RhagePip which A levels is he doing? DD is studying biomed at university and did chemistry, biology and geography. The course requirements asks for chemistry or biology or both, and DD said that she felt sorry for anyone who didn't do both. She also felt at a disadvantage having done Edexcel biology as all her friends did AQA and they had covered some completely different topics. The lecturer said " you will have covered this at A level" and DD hadn't.

@Ginfordinner - he's currently doing maths physics and biology along with a medical enrichment program. The course he's looking at for uni require maths and biology as a must. His college are so far very supportive and have great communication with the young people and parents, and those with very clear ideas on what they want are helped to research what they need to be doing, guided through different uni options and supported with extra sessions if needed.

Had he not had so much missed schooling (he had ill health from year 8 through till year 11 mocks) I think his grades would of been higher. He's certainly keeping up with his classes now.
His secondary wasn't a fabulous school tbh and the academy as a whole seems more interested in just getting the basic levels to not resit.

There is a lot of chemistry content in a biomed degree. I'm surprised that they specified maths instead of chemistry TBH.

It's actual GCSE grades, not predicted grades, that determine college places (otherwise, a kid with a predicted grade of 9 but who got an actual grade of 5 would get in and the kid with the reverse would not!).

If she gets the required grades, she'll get a sixth form place.

This is his aim and the requirements needed. Every uni will have different requirements. This is the uni he likes and has spent time in.

It's actual GCSE grades, not predicted grades, that determine college places
Not in our experience. Offers for sixth form places were made on predicted grades. Good state sixth forms are oversubscribed and pick who they want to interview on the basis of those grades and then an interview. The process was awful, worse than applying for university. Rejection after rejection- just on that basis - even though in the end my DC did loads better than predicted, those potential places were lost.

YANBU.

Re chemistry. I dont know much about the flight path system as my children are still primary but so.many people say chemistry is very hard. It's probably one of the harder ones but I got the equivalent of a 6 at GCSE (mostly got 7/8 equivalents) and did chemistry A level with physics and biology. I'm clever enough but in no way exceptional, I just had to work hard. I find it sad that people are discouraged from taking it if they arent getting 8s and 9s ? I went on to do medicine in the days when not everyone doing medicine got straight 8/9s at GCSE and As at A level, and again it was alot if very hard work and was a vast amount of information to process and learn but not much was actually very difficult as that tended to be the remit of the pure scientists. I fear that many people are being pushed out of career paths that they are perfectly capable of doing with grit and determination, as schools and universities pursue this bizarre system.

Lipperfromchipper
I'm amazed your friend who did medicine didn't have two lab sciences. Where did he/she do it?

@SpiderHunter Wed 22-Jan-20 21:52:25
For those who are from other countries, what country-wide exams do the pupils sit? And how is teacher / school performance measured?

In the US, higher performing students do higher level coursework and Advanced Placement exams. AP courses can be taken in any year of high school. AP exams are graded by an external board.
They can also do SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) subject tests without taking AP coursework. Again, graded externally.
There is also a nationwide exam called the NMSQT, taken in Junior year (second from last year of high school). This is also graded externally.
You have a better chance at success in all of these ^^ if you have taken honours courses in maths, English, sciences, though information/knowledge are not what the PSAT/ NMSQT or other standardised tests measure. Vocab, reasoning, and logic are what they are looking for. The SAT subject tests and AP tests are looking for solid subject knowledge, excellent writing or math skills and solid science knowledge and scientific thinking skills.

Doing tutoring to help you master the many ways to attack the papers also helps. It's quite a cottage industry, and makes a mockery of attempts to gauge school performance.
Additionally, there are statewide exams that most students in any given school take.
There is no nationwide exam like the Irish Leaving Cert or the Junior Cert, but plenty of quality control.

Additionally, at many schools, parents can access all of their students' grades in tests, assignments, and class participation by means of a programme used by vast numbers of schools. The grade point average system that is used by universities to assess applicant potential requires serious students to hand in all work, do really well at all tests, and participate in class. By contrast with the Irish system, in which the final exam of the year is the clincher where grades are concerned, American students have to work hard and consistently from the first day of high school if they are to have a hope of admission to desirable universities. Cross referencing of SAT subject test results, AP exam results, PSAT/NMSQT results and other standardised tests with the GPA produces a picture of realistic or unrealistic grading within a school.

I like both the American system and the Irish system though they have major differences. Both offer a broad education. Both leave options open for third level. Both allow late bloomers to eventually flourish if they put in the effort. Both allow high flyers to get where they want early.

Measurement of school performance is a thorny issue. Is an American school performing well if many of its white, middle class students do well on standardised tests and 24 white students achieve National Merit Finalist status? The same school might have no African American students in AP classes. Or is it doing well if it offers a pathway to whatever eventual careers the vast majority of its students are interested in - automotive tech, childcare, nuclear physicist, CEO... Is it doing well if it offers students a staff of social workers to help keep students on the straight and narrow?

@flyingfoxes I would get your child into an IB programme if at all possible. I would actually move house, move city, move mountains to get her out of the GCSE - A levels track.

Or investigate university in the US for her. Is she a US citizen? The beauty of American universities is the core coursework/ gen ed work required and possibility of choosing a major when you are 19/20 (though many state schools ask you to indicate a major when you apply, and it can be hard to change from this track - best bet if you really don't know is Undeclared).

Blimey. I had no idea that chemistry was considered the hardest science. I did a Chemistry combined degree in the 80s and did not find the Chemistry harder than Physics or Mathematics, bur maybe that is me.

Op. How have the choices your DD made narrowed her a level options,,?. A level entry is not based on predicted grades but actual grades.
I thought a 6 at GSSE was required for most a levels , though maybe it does vary by subject.

I agree and think the U.K. system is utterly shite. So many miserable children. Tedious dry exams and crap reporting to parents.

Op my dc are at grammars and have been told the new GCSEs are a much better prep for Science A levels. The grammars want a 7 for Chemistry.The outstanding non grammar 6th form college that gets kids to Russell group unis wants a 6 and a 6 in maths. They want either predicted or mocks and take everybody if they get course requirements which vary.

midwestcharm don't you mean breadth rather than depth?