To feel frustrated with the UK secondary system?

[flyingfoxes]

I'm from the US, and we moved here when DD was in preschool. Since she started school I've struggled with understanding how she's performing in school (one year we got a yearly report with "2a" or "2b" type grades to show how she was doing, which was helpful, but it was scrapped right after). The teachers always just said she was doing fine. She did well enough in the SATs but it was the first time we had hard evidence of how she was performing, and it was too late after the fact to help her with any specific areas, like maths, to give her a boost.

She's now in year 10. Since she started secondary, I've been given a number of progress reports that are essentially "work ethic" reports and an annual progress report that says whether or not she's meeting her own personalised targets. When I've asked to know what those targets are, the school got cagey and said they weren't allowed to tell me. What? Why? But I was assured that she's doing fine and once she started GCSEs that we'd finally find out her predicted grades.

So... we've finally gotten those, yay. Except... they're not nearly as high as they could be. And her predicted grades will determine what A levels she can take, which determine what university courses she can take, and I'm overwhelmed at the idea that at 14 her life choices are already being narrowed down so significantly... based on predicted grades for an exam she hasn't even sat yet.

I posted about this in the education section and was told not to even try a chemistry A level with a predicted grade of 5+ on the GCSEs. But... that's what she wants to do, is study chemistry. How can it already be decided so soon?!

When I was 14 in the US, I had no flipping clue what I wanted to do in life. I did okay (not as well as I could have done), but then excelled at university, came to the UK and got a masters with distinction from a Russell group university. If I had closed off that possibility at 14, my life would be very, very different than it is now.

Anyway, I'm just frustrated -- that I never knew how DD was performing, didn't help her sooner (I was told she was doing fine!), and now she's going to have to work extra hard to get to where she should be. I just wish we had better signposts here (a letter grade here and there would be nice!) or more flexible options for university age kids. Am I being massively unreasonable?

I agree and think the U.K. system is utterly shite. So many miserable children. Tedious dry exams and crap reporting to parents.

You mean the English system? No such thing as a UK education system

I haven't managed to read the whole thread, OP. But are you not getting confused by target grades and predicted grades? So, I have students that are targeted to reach a 5+. That's the target set by prior data from primary school/sats. Most secondarys use this type of target.
But, said student is predicted to get a 7+. They are working well above their target grade.
On a sixth form application you don't put target grades, you put predicted grades if that helps?

*secondaries. It's early!

I think the terminology hasn't been explained v well.

I think basing anything on mocks would be ridiculous.For many without proactive parents it’s a huge wake up call. The mocks in question will vary hugely from school to school as regards difficulty, content and marking. Many will actually work for the real things too.

If she is doing AQA science a good resource is

www.mygcsescience.com

All the DC I have known that have used this properly have achieved great science results.

It's a one off payment and best money I've spent on a revision tool.

@mathanxiety that was in Ireland...however that was nearly 20 years ago. We work on a points based system. It’s funny because I had a look after this thread and it must have changed because now you need chemistry as one of your subjects for some universities and for some universities you need 2 sciences.

The same base rules apply though: you must pass English, Irish and maths to get into ANY course. If you fail any of those 3 then you don’t get access to a university course essentially.

@user1471530109

But are you not getting confused by target grades and predicted grades?

Thank you but no, we have a chart that lists both. Although the rest of your post explains why some of her target grades are lower than her predicted grades, instead of higher (I thought the targets would be more aspirational).

Target means ‘automatically generated average expectation for all children with the same SATs results as yours’, not ‘aspirational but achievable with hard work’.

I had no idea that chemistry was considered the hardest science

It isn't - it's considered to be one of the hardest A levels which is a very different thing. I'd guess FM is reckoned to be harder but that's only taken by a self-selecting minority who are particularly good at maths, whereas chemistry is one of the subjects required or highly desirable for quite a lot of uni courses. Im a PhD chemist, back when I was doing A levels it was apparent to me that quite a lot of my classmates did find it tough - maybe because it requires some ability in maths, practical skills, memory, but also at that level a bit more abstract thought than the physics did. I think I'd have found degree level physics harder and no way would have contemplated doing maths (having done double maths A levels)!

flyingfoxes if her target grades are lower than her predicted grades it means that she is working at a higher level, which is good.

ErrolTheDragon of the A levels that DD took she found chemistry the hardest, but she enjoyed it the most partly because she had such an inspirational teacher and partly she has a logical mind. She dislikes "fluffy" subjects which have no right or wrong answer. She disliked physics for a similar reason because it is all theory and less logical to her.

Ironically, of the three sciences she achieved her highest UMS marks in physics GCSE. She said that she learned everything by heart but didn't understand it, so she knew the "what" but not the "how" and the "why". These were the old style GCSEs with ABC grades.

I'd guess FM is reckoned to be harder but that's only taken by a self-selecting minority who are particularly good at maths, whereas chemistry is one of the subjects required or highly desirable for quite a lot of uni courses.

Many Unis require FM for their Maths (and related subjects) degree courses.

Many Unis require FM for their Maths (and related subjects) degree courses.

Off topic, but strictly speaking none actually require it because not all sixth forms offer it. But if it's available, then applicants to top maths courses - and a few others (eg engineering at oxbridge) will be 'strongly encouraged' to take it, elsewhere it will be 'desirable'. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of maths courses at good unis which can be accessed with single maths.
If you're not really good at maths you might do single maths as it's needed for many courses, but not FM, whereas if you're a bit mediocre at chemistry but need it then you have to take chemistry. There's a much wider range of people taking it.

Unis don’t require it or stipulate it should be done if available. We’ve been looking at said course recently.

You sound so full of angst OP. Is it the result of the English system or are you usually like this? You sound so stressed that you'll end up upsetting yourself. Please try to see that this stress will fall onto your dd. Hothousing her will just end up with a very stressed, unhappy child.

What happened to allowing children to follow their interests and we support them with that and encourage good study but not force? It seems lots of parents here are stressing hugely- it's not supposed to be this crazy.

I'm in Scotland and have known my children's abilities all through school through reports and asking. The system here is much simpler. I've just has DS's report (15) sitting National 5s (GCSE) this summer with predictions based on prelims (mocks) and performance across the year. It also has very specific advice about how he can prepare for exams ( which areas he excells/ can improve on, techniques, resources to use and times of supported study after school and Saturdays).

He is at his local comprehensive with all his friends ( no grammars/ academies here) and we've let him go at his own pace. He's predicted A band 1 in every subject, but if he was predicted Cs that would also be fine as he would be achieving at HIS level. The school have lots of paths on offer- part-time college, apprenticeships, subjects over 2/3 years, National 3 or 4 etc to encourage all to achieve and develop.

Where does this Mumsnet idea of only DC who are super academic are allowed come from?!

Where does this Mumsnet idea of only DC who are super academic are allowed come from?!

I think many MN posters are very high achievers themselves and so have the idea that anything less than all grade 9s (possibly the occasional grade 8) at GCSE is a disaster and will mean their child's future is entirely ruined. On a similar vein, many MN posters send their DC to selective schools and forget, that actually a 6 or 7 is quite very good, because their DC are surrounded by extremely academic children.

A colleague said something to me yesterday that resonated.
It was along the lines of "They all get there eventually. They might just take a different path".

Reporting in secondary schools is absolutely ridiculous. There is no standardisation or consistency and every school made up developed their own system.

I have two at same secondary two school years apart - succession of head and it's been completely differnt with them. DD1 had 4 p/t meeting same time with DS 1 - reports have got more and more minimal - last one two number and two words about attitude to learning.

I never felt like we got much feedback in primary - and that's speaking as a native Bristish person who went to English schools and didn't expect a lot at secondary but it's been worse than I thought.

We're in Wales and the national tests and national leves do give a bit more feeback but we have't been given the CAT scores - most test resulst including GCSE mock results I know becuase my children tell me.

Last p/t for DD1 - yr 10 and sitting some GCSE exams this year - and it was clear teachers were using preidcted grades on report in very different ways - some as to aspire to some as what they'd get right now some as likley grades at exams.

Also becuase of how exams are sat here - quite a few GCSE bits done this year there isn't a big set of mocks to act as a wake up call.

I'm not sure how it will work for sixth form collegue here next few months have open days so will be asking - DD1 doesn't want to stay for sixth form at her school. I image though there used to system and situation of grades being different to predicted ones.

I agree with RedskyAtnight. There are a lot of mumsnetters with very high achieving children, also a lot with self motivated children who don't understand the angst that many of us have when we see our children procrastinating. They are self congratulatory on their "parenting skills" and just advise us anxious parents to let them get on with it. But these children don't just get on with it without parental support and encouragement.

@Ginfordinner your are quite right, the shame!!
That will teach me for commenting when tired.
I think breadth rather than depth does have advantages when young.

Where does this Mumsnet idea of only DC who are super academic are allowed come from?!

Too much focus and sometimes misinterpretation and exaggeration of a small minority of posters, I think. I've been on all sorts of education threads for years and I don't believe I've ever seen anyone who thinks 'the idea that anything less than all grade 9s (possibly the occasional grade 8) at GCSE is a disaster and will mean their child's future is entirely ruined' - or at least, not for long!

It's a shame you haven't got feedback but having been through the British system myself and taught undergrads in the US and the UK I think the UK system is a much better academic preparation. I'd focus on helping your DD improve her performance in chemistry/other subjects and ask the teachers what she needs to do -- that's what's going to help her, not worrying about the predicted grade. Ultimately, success in GCSEs is largely determined by the amount of hard work the student is willing to put in. If she puts in the hours over the next couple of years and has teachers (or a tutor?) who are able to guide her then she may very well get better results than currently predicted.

CAT tests are essentially IQ tests, so if she was at th 98th centile then that should indicate that she is very able.
My dcs school definitely predicted low for GCSE grades.
Other than that is she doing Hw , revising for tests?
As for 6th forms - the A level grade requirements for chemistry etc are there for a reason.

The Scots system has always had depth rather than breadth.

The opposite in fact.

And while many aspects of education in Scotland may be simpler or better, standards of learning and behaviour are much poorer than they should be, in my area at least.

@Laughterisbest I've said a couple of posts down I got this the wrong way round, posting while tired last night 😳

The Scots system has always had depth rather than breadth.

Maybe I should try and get post deleted.

It sounds more like a secondary school with poor communication, rather than the entire UK educational system being crap. I think you needed to push harder for this information years ago. My kids predicted grades were certainly never a shock to me.

Education in England does tend to become more specific earlier than in the US which stays much more general for far longer, but that can hardly be news to you OP?

According to this the Scottish education system has declined over the last decade and is worse than England's.