To feel frustrated with the UK secondary system?

[flyingfoxes]

I'm from the US, and we moved here when DD was in preschool. Since she started school I've struggled with understanding how she's performing in school (one year we got a yearly report with "2a" or "2b" type grades to show how she was doing, which was helpful, but it was scrapped right after). The teachers always just said she was doing fine. She did well enough in the SATs but it was the first time we had hard evidence of how she was performing, and it was too late after the fact to help her with any specific areas, like maths, to give her a boost.

She's now in year 10. Since she started secondary, I've been given a number of progress reports that are essentially "work ethic" reports and an annual progress report that says whether or not she's meeting her own personalised targets. When I've asked to know what those targets are, the school got cagey and said they weren't allowed to tell me. What? Why? But I was assured that she's doing fine and once she started GCSEs that we'd finally find out her predicted grades.

So... we've finally gotten those, yay. Except... they're not nearly as high as they could be. And her predicted grades will determine what A levels she can take, which determine what university courses she can take, and I'm overwhelmed at the idea that at 14 her life choices are already being narrowed down so significantly... based on predicted grades for an exam she hasn't even sat yet.

I posted about this in the education section and was told not to even try a chemistry A level with a predicted grade of 5+ on the GCSEs. But... that's what she wants to do, is study chemistry. How can it already be decided so soon?!

When I was 14 in the US, I had no flipping clue what I wanted to do in life. I did okay (not as well as I could have done), but then excelled at university, came to the UK and got a masters with distinction from a Russell group university. If I had closed off that possibility at 14, my life would be very, very different than it is now.

Anyway, I'm just frustrated -- that I never knew how DD was performing, didn't help her sooner (I was told she was doing fine!), and now she's going to have to work extra hard to get to where she should be. I just wish we had better signposts here (a letter grade here and there would be nice!) or more flexible options for university age kids. Am I being massively unreasonable?

Sorry, midwestcharm I missed your correction.

I wouldn't worry about getting it deleted. . This thread is really concerned with the English system.

YANBU in being disappointed in the poor communication from your daughter's school. I am very surprised that there wasn't a full discussion about her progress at her year 9 parents' evening before she picked her GCSE options.
But YABU to assume that every British secondary school is like this. I have never had any such difficulties with my children's (English, State) school.
You also seem to be catastrophising somewhat. She has done one term in year 10 and her predicted grades are not as good as you would hope. It is not the end of the world. Nothing is set in stone. There is still plenty of time to improve things, or to reassess what she wants to do.
My elder son brought home a less than completely inspiring report at Christmas. Having completed one term of 6th form he is apparently on course for a D in his previously favourite subject, after gaining a 9 at GCSE. Obviously that's not good, but rather than throwing my hands in the air and declaring that he will never get a place at a decent university and he is doomed forever, we sat down and had a rational talk about what has gone wrong, how he feels about it, what he proposes to do about it and what we can do support him. Stressing rarely helps solve a problem.
I appreciate it is a shock, and it must seem harder when you are navigating a system with which you are unfamiliar. But actually to a degree all parents are getting to grips with a system that we don't fully understand at the moment as the GCSE syllabi changed radically only a couple of years ago. I think that is making it harder for teachers to accurately predict because they haven't got years of past outcomes to go on.
Yes, it would have been better if you had had more information sooner, but you are where you are. Focus on finding some positive steps forward. Do you have a parents' evening coming up? If not, you could contact the teachers and ask them to see you or talk on the phone. Also talk to your daughter and see what she thinks. And keep things in proportion. A grade 5 is a good pass. Some 6th forms will want a 7 for a student to be able to take A level in some subjects it is true, but plenty in our area will accept a 6. If your DD's current predicted grade is 5+ that suggests that she is not far off a 6, and she still had plenty of time to improve.

According to this the Scottish education system has declined over the last decade and is worse than England's

Not really, Pisa scores for the UK are very good and reading scores are the same across the UK but maths and science scores on Pisa test dropped a little bit.

The Scottish education system is structured very differently and kids generally start later here and go to university for longer so I'm not sure how that plays out in the scores.

Overall, Scotland still produces more graduates per head of population compared to the rest of UK & most of Europe.

According to this the Scottish education system has declined over the last decade and is worse than England

That's as maybe but we're not debating which one is best. Personally I prefer the Scottish system as it's broader for longer. The problem is that the OP and others are talking about "the UK system" or "the British system" and rattling on about things like SAT tests or predicted grades or A-level choices. OP is talking about the ENGLISH system.

There is a difference.

It's one thing to "leave them to it" if a child isn't interested or able, or if they're very self motivated, but DD has a specific goal she chose on her own (to study chemistry at university) and is academically capable enough to meet it, while not having the natural self discipline (yet) to work hard for it. I think in this case I would be wrong to not help her develop study skills and time management so she can meet her goals.

Will her current school allow her to do Chem A level with a double GCSE? And if so, what double grade do they require? (Sorry if you’ve already said this...)

@KingscoteStaff

Her current school ends after year 11. The sixth form we're hoping for requires a 6 in at least two sciences to take chemistry (I haven't looked at the requirements for the other local sixth forms but need to do that soon!).

I think in this case I would be wrong to not help her develop study skills and time management so she can meet her goals.

Yes - you seem to me to be well on the right side of 'being a good supportive parent' versus 'helicopter, try to do it for them' type.

The fact she's got a goal which ought to be within her capabilities is a plus versus quite a lot of kids of this age.

To put it in context OP the grade 6 boundary for last year's chemistry GCSE (for AQA which my DCs school took) was only 46% , so you're talking about less than 1/2 marks here.

She's only 14 . She has plenty of time to improve her performance, get better predicted grades and perform well in the exam. Unless there are extenuating circumstances I agree it would be unwise to attempt an A-level if she wasn't able to get at least a 6 at GCSE (probably in all three sciences and maths). She has plenty of time to make sure that happens and if after working hard she doesn't manage it she has plenty of time to choose an alternative plan for sixth form.

It does sound like the school have been rubbish at communicating but in any country in the world children's future university options will be limited by their abilities and work ethic. At 14 in most (but not all) cases it's obvious if the child is likely to be aiming at a top university or whether their strengths lie in arts or sciences or outside of academics.

It's a terrible, terrible system. Worse now that our secondary school makes students pick their GCSE courses in year 8, when they're 12 and 13 years old.

And it's not sour grapes or concerns that has me saying that. I write that as a parent with a child in Year 10 with top marks predicted across the board, 8s and 9s, and he's already hitting those in mocks. And I still think it's wrong. Who the hell is that certain they know what they want to do at 13, 14? So many options are eliminated far too early in the school system here ... devastating for late bloomers. There's very little room for them. I think it's sad.

I agree with you letmebefrank. I don't think schools should be allowed to start GCSE courses early. I know of quite do it. Some teach the whole courses over 3 years whereas others focus on some to start with and do the exams early, then stop those subjects and do the rest til the end of year 11. It is all about league table results. I don't think it does the pupils any good at all. My children's school dont do it - one of several reasons why we preferred it.

That's as maybe but we're not debating which one is best.

Sure. Upthread there are comments about how the Scottish system is better. The PISA survey suggests this isn't clearly so.

(It also suggests the English system has been improving over the last decade).

The Scottish education system is structured very differently and kids generally start later here and go to university for longer so I'm not sure how that plays out in the scores.

It tests attainment at 15. I would suggest that numbers going though university are so similar across Eng and Sco as to be irrelevant. There are probably too many grads in both countries.

that was in Ireland...however that was nearly 20 years ago. We work on a points based system. It’s funny because I had a look after this thread and it must have changed because now you need chemistry as one of your subjects for some universities and for some universities you need 2 sciences.
Lipperfromchipper

I am Irish though my DCs have all been educated in the US, and I love the CAO. It is brutally efficient and saves an immense amount of time and effort, and also ensures that at least at the point of decision making on admissions there is a level playing field. 'Computer says yes' or 'computer says no' - far better than rounds of interviews and reams of personal statements, lists of extra curricular activities, and all the rigmarole required for admission to American private universities.

...in any country in the world children's future university options will be limited by their abilities and work ethic. At 14 in most (but not all) cases it's obvious if the child is likely to be aiming at a top university or whether their strengths lie in arts or sciences or outside of academics.
BottleOfJameson

I completely disagree.

'Ability' is such a nebulous thing. How do you determine what is 'ability' and what is good teaching, or access to extra curricular enrichment in any given area (even parents who are able and willing to do this themselves)? How do you know that a hidden or unsuspected disability or weakness, even a slight one, is holding an intelligent and potentially motivated student back?

The American system, for all its faults, preserves opportunity for anyone willing to put in the work. Willingness to put in the work is the result of ability to defer gratification, belief that effort is worthwhile, that it leads somewhere worth going to that is somewhere the individual wants to go, and belief that they will belong there when they get there. A certain foundation of self esteem in other words, and self belief.

A broad curriculum is offered in high school and the first two years of university, with a decision on a major only required after that. Most students might have some idea of where they were going even before applying of course, and there are degrees where you start on Day 1 (engineering for example).

It's complete rubbish that the American system. Rewards anyone who works hard. The USA has a poorer performing education system than the UK and much worse social mobility. If you're born poor in the USA you're very likely to remain poor. That's just statistical fact.

While circumstances certainly affect performance it's very obvious ability matters enormouslu too. Not everyone can study at oxford/harvard/mit.

You do need to take responsibility for your own learning. With effort a decent student should be able to get 6 at gcse, if you can't mange that then it's definitely better to look at other options.