Privilege. How can it be talked about and acknowledged in today's society

[chomalungma]

Just a follow up from the recent threads. Male privilege. White privilege. It exists. But some people think it is a poor concept as they don't seem privileged. This thread is just to carry on the conversation.

Ok then, would you agree that a BAME student from a deprived background in Blackpool is likely to face more obstacles and challenges in their life based upon the colour of their skin than a white child from the same background?

Quite probably.... but then again, a white working class person from Blackpool dropped into a majority BAME community would likely fare worse and experience more day to day prejudice than the typical member of that community.

The key point though is that public policy has allowed large, overwhelmingly white communities to become marginalised and impoverished to the extent that they rank beneath the most impoverished BAME communities (which I don’t deny exist) and have educational attainment below almost every other group, including most BAME groups. These white communities are generally looked down upon by the middle class, largely white, privileged elite, of which I am a part. The response to the Brexit vote exemplifies this well.

To talk about white privilege in this context is perverse, and shows a fixation with race which will only magnify racial tensions.

I did have an interview at Cambridge - didn't get in - and completely felt like a fish out of water

I had an interview for a job in a private school. There was an interview in the Head's study, quite informal but intimidating surroundings.

I was fine with it. I went to a Grammar School and was used to those surroundings. The other person there had no experience of such a place and was really nervous.

I got the job. I don't know how they could have made it less stressful for the other candidate but I did have an advantage.

We aren't starting with a predetermined conclusion, its a good point to make. Young white men are as likely to commit crimes as young BAME men. But why are young black men stopped and searched more ?

You say that you aren't starting with a predetermined conclusion, but the fact you then ask me that question as if the answer should be self-evident suggests otherwise. Most likely the true answer is complex and multi-factorial.

It isn't a flawed concept or deeply divisive at all. It only is if you take offence at it being pointed out

The fact you don’t believe it should be divisive doesn’t mean it isn’t! QT last week being a case in point.

o talk about white privilege in this context is perverse, and shows a fixation with race which will only magnify racial tensions

It's not just about this context though.
It's also not just about white privilege.

Do you think it's important to think about the advantages and disadvantages groups face - of which there are many different ones - and try to change attitudes so there is a better, more level playing field?

DS is a white male. He has a lot of advantages in life already. But there are barriers out there he already faces that aren't his fault. I would like to live in a society where those barriers aren't there.

I am sure we would all like our children to face less barriers in life than we did.

The fact you don’t believe it should be divisive doesn’t mean it isn’t! QT last week being a case in point

It shouldn't be divisive to try and make life more of a level playing field, should it?

Do a privilege walk. Everyone stands in a line. I take a step forward because my parents are graduates. I take a step back because I am BAME. I take a step forward because my parents took me to the library growing up.

Or you could instead reject that indoctrination and just live like an individual human being rather than a neurotic agglomeration of perceived advantages and demerits.

@CendrillonSings LOL fair point I get how that sounds, but it it wasn't lack of subject knowledge. I had successful interviews at three other now-Russell Group universities that same year. It was the way the questions were set up and framed: they were designed to be answered by people who were already in the club. And I, clearly, wasn't. At one point one of the blokes openly sniggered at me. I didn't have the language/awareness to describe it at the time but it was intimidating.

I don't think I could even tell you what a white working class name is?

Conor, Darren, Dwayne etc.

So you don't think prejudice plays a major role. Despite the fact that the rate of criminality is very similar, one group is stopped at a disproportionately far higher rate?

There may be other factors at play, but no one ever disputed that.

Saying "oh there are many reasons" is an attempt to dismiss the argument without any real analysis.

Or you could instead reject that indoctrination and just live like an individual human being rather than a neurotic agglomeration of perceived advantages and demerits

Whilst those people with a lot of advantages continue carrying on with their life, ensuring that others are kept back.....

It shouldn't be divisive to try and make life more of a level playing field, should it?

Agreed. Lumping white people together into some homogeneous group when there is such disparity won’t help though.

It shouldn't be divisive to try and make life more of a level playing field, should it?

Are you serious? What could possibly be more divisive?

And who gets to decide what a level playing field consists of? You?

Its only a divisive point when you refuse to acknowledge that it exists. Its all anyone is asking you to do, and to support people who are trying to achieve better equality.

And no I don't really believe that people called Connor or Darren or Dwayne face much discrimination, as said the CV test data shows names that would be associated with being British (as they are) are far more likely to be asked to interview.

You still haven't answered my question about the BAME student from blackpool.

Lumping white people together into some homogeneous group when there is such disparity won’t help though.

Only if they become defensive and think someone is after their cookie when they're eating crumbs. That's when the race to the bottom and top trumps starts and the rage that oppressed groups seem to "win" despite the fact that Barrack Obama was president ,we have a Queen and whatever else.

the way the questions were set up and framed: they were designed to be answered by people who were already in the club

A bit like some other selection tests have been claimed to be.

@Cendrillonsings

Please can you explain how it's divisive?

If you don't want to see a level playing field, or try to move towards one, how come?

Its only a divisive point when you refuse to acknowledge that it exists. Its all anyone is asking you to do, and to support people who are trying to achieve better equality.

Ah, of course there would be no division if we all agreed with you and submitted wholesale to your ideology! Why didn’t we think of that sooner?

greed. Lumping white people together into some homogeneous group when there is such disparity won’t help though

Can I ask a question?
What do you think white privilege means?

@oakenbeach how was QT a case in point ?

Re young black men, their over representation in prisons and secure psychiatric wards is clear evidence of institutional discrimination and I can't believe anyone is arguing against this. Jfc, the entire administration of the death penalty in the USA is basically state sanctioned lynching at heart, and that's before you even get onto questions about men being shot because white folks are "frightened" of them.

Bloody hell, I'd just like to make clear that while I dislike the inane "apportion points for how privileged you are" approach to social discourse that I do want to distance myself from expressions of outright denial that racism exists given that this flies in the face of all evidence.

So you don't think prejudice plays a major role. Despite the fact that the rate of criminality is very similar, one group is stopped at a disproportionately far higher rate?

What part of "it's complicated" translates as "I don't think prejudice plays a major role"?

I don't know what the answers are, I don't wish to prejudge what the answers might be, but I'm deeply, deeply skeptical that it is as simple as the black and white (pardon the pun) narrative that you are pushing. I can be persuaded otherwise though, but by hard evidence not by appeals to theoretical frameworks of privilege.

Young white men are as likely to commit crimes as young BAME men.

That’s not true. I would like it to be true, but it isn’t. 2/3 of knife crime in London was carried out by BAME youths (2017 - Mayor of London’s Office for Policing and Crime). There are complex reasons for this that have their roots in poverty and deprivation, and I certainly don’t believe BAME youths are inherently more criminal than white youths, but refusing to accept hard truths because they don’t suit your narrative doesn’t help.

Given this reality it’s understandable that BAME youths are subject to more stop and search, and this isn’t, of itself, racist.

You do realise that the criteria for "working class" in these instances is FSM?

Is it? We were never told that, and tbh it makes no sense. You can have middle class children on FSM so that skews the data if what you say is true.

We only talked about disadvantaged Vs advantaged or PP, we weren't told that working class = FSM

Oh of course THOSE white working class names. Nope try again loads of black males called Conor, Darren and Dwayne. Perhaps you just don't know any or perhaps it is the class and not the race you are biased against?